Fang Shen Do

[Doctor X]

Stringfellow:

Oh do not get me wrong; I level no criticism towards you or anyone else posting evidence and issues involved in FSD. As I tried to suggest, it is a useful paradigm for understanding delusions in martial arts as well as other things.

My criticism is towards the individual who, despite all of this, insists on joining FSD. Now, that is his right, of course. Then he should go, train, and let people know the positive and negatives. Instead, he asks leading questions then reacts badlyto the answers. I really do not care if he is legitimate or not; he is a waste of attention. A serious man would simply train and come back and write about how everyone is either correct or wrong about FSD.

A wiseman would heed the warning of those who experienced before.

For intelligent men learn from mistakes, whereas wisemen learn from the mistakes of others.

--J.D.

[Slug]

Wing Fang Chun Do

I have; and truthfully toe to toe the main sifus aren't bad. They're fast and pack a powerful punch. The shit they teach in class is useless even to them because I've never had any of them use a phon sao or any sort of trapping hands on me. They basically practise hard combinations over and over that are relatively effective. They boast being able to flow - meaning if one thing doesn't work then use another. Makes sense right? Not totally, because the minute you go to the ground their flow resorts to bites, eye and nut strikes simply because they don't know how to grapple.

I would imagine that most of the FSD standup game or all of it is based on Wing Chun Do's approach, which is close distance and slug/blast away.

I would imagine that you get decent at anything if your repetitive enough in your training which is fine. BUT wtf do you do when your game plan changes? ground fighting is a real possibility and to think that eye 'boinks' and biting will neutralize a good ground fighter you are indeed fucking nuts. A good ground guy will dish it out right back at you. The FSD mentality seems to harken back to the pre UFC days where Kung Fu was mysterious and 'deadly' becuase there was nothing to gauge it to.

[Crazy Mount]

It is my sincere hope that those that so far have been quiet out of fear will stand up and tell their stories, and that with each additional one it will encourage the next person to tell theirs. No one needs to fear these people.

Amen to that Stringfellow. You are absolutely right, knowone needs to fear these people. I too once feared these individuals and have since realized that they are all talk; full of idle threats and bullying. Anyone out there that is afraid to reveal their stories musn't hold back. You'll find that your story is one of so so many and that the Patenudes best defense to these stories is to instill more fear in hopes that you'll keep quiet.

Should a student fear a retaliation from his teacher? Should a student be afraid to talk about his experiences of a school out in the open? Absolutely not! Any grief the Patenudes get from us telling our stories, they brought upon themselves. People like many of those telling their stories on this thread are not people who look for trouble, but individuals who became fed up with the way they were treated. The treatment they recieved was given to them by the Patenudes, a family who they once worshiped and respected. Every threat they send or challange they put forth only strengthens are statements that they are an aggressive, bullying cult. The best offense they could assemble would be to hold an intellectual conversation where they listen to our questions and answer them honestly. Together problems could be solved and past failures could be mended. The Patenudes have too much pride and would simply not do this. They think that they don't need to listen to anyone because they have all the answers. They think there better than everyone, and will say that we're just a few disgruntled students, when actually there are many. The Patenudes will do damage control which will result in them instilling more fear in their students so that students will think twice about talking. This is why you have guys who used to have FSD schools not speaking up.


The best thing we can do is tell our stories and make the Patenudes face them, and eventually own up to them if they are to continue. They must do this if they are to advance because any new student can simply go in and ask them about comments from this thread. A simple "oh, it's just a few angry students" won't cut it. A new student will read right through it. Sigoo flying out of his office and yelling at a future student for asking such stupid questions will only make the newcommer run for the door, if he/she hasn't already. This is the beauty of us telling our stories. We need to reveal the truth of their actions and pull back the curtain.

[Haru_the_larger]

I am constantly amazed at the things coming out of this thread. I am one of the people referred to by Stringfellow who is worried about being found out be sJP and the other sifus. As Stringfellow pointed out, there are a significant number of stories and other bits of information that have not been posted. I would imagine that the majority of this information is being hidden for fear of retaliation.

There were a few things I wanted to bring up:

1. Has there been actual confirmation that sifu Martin was, in fact, schooled by a person with a few weeks of BJJ? I've seen second and third hand accounts, and I've seen lots of people glom onto this tidbit, but did anyone here actually see it? I am certainly not claiming it did not happen, but if you check through my posts, I have tried to be consistent in presenting information that can actually be verified, and asking for verification on things that I see as questionable. It is for this reason that I have not posted a number of stories because I heard them second or third hand and while they would be great fodder for conversation, I can't confirm them as actual fact even though they fit the profile.

2. I was never at a training camp where there was any basketball, baseball, or relaxing for that matter. Sure it was out in the bush and there were tents and camping. What I did see was a liability law suit waiting to happen. I saw equipment failures that could have resulted in serious bodily harm. I saw a lack of planning and organization that resulted in injury. I saw humiliation and intimidation. There were a few good things at the camps I was at, but for the most part it was just another money grab.

3. The focus on results seminar with the arrow breaking was underwhelming. The first thing that they told everyone was to put away their pens and paper because you were not allowed to take notes. I could go on about this for a while, but that alone was enough to turn me off. I would guess that half the people at the session I went to had paper and pens. I don't know if they are afraid that people would walk away with trade secrets or something, but to me it just seemed as though it made the session more of a rip off. The arrow breaking was a joke, but it certainly seems as though everyone here is aware of that. You are given one arrow with your registration fee (which at any cost is too expensive), and then charged $5 per extra arrow you wish to break. They had instructors and sJP himself break multiple arrows on their throats all at once claiming that they were setting new records. I think one guy broke ten arrows on his neck maybe. One of the participants was so overcome by the "power" of the session that he cried and talked about how it would allow him to overcome all his fears, blah, blah, blah. I saw the guy in class. I don't care what fears he overcame, he was still going to get his ass beat in school, never have a girlfriend, and couldn't even do FSD for shit. I am not a good martial artist, this I know. But that poor kid was totally brainwashed.

4. I was thinking about this idea of donating FSD tshirts to charity. The idea of seeing the homeless and downtrodden in Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa wearing these clothes is amusing, think on this for a moment: it has been shown repeatedly in this thread that the Patenaude's are vindictive, spiteful, and will do anything to protect their kingdom. There are stories on here about them beating up drunk people. I can see this being a problem. Can you imagine sJP coming across a homeless guy wearing a shirt from his school? What would the results be? What if it was sifu Martin or sifu Pat? Do you think they would walk away? I am all for helping the homeless, but getting them beaten up is not on my agenda.

5. Someone asked if tshirts were free. I am pretty sure that they were talking about the tshirts you should get for your first internet threat/call out thanks to shadow beast (more on that later), but it got me to thinking. A BBC tshirt costs between $25 and $30. A regular FSD shirt cost about $22 if I remember correctly. All the equipment and clothing was extremely expensive. Many students wised up to this and started getting their equipment elsewhere in order to save money. I would love to post the place I went, but the owner, when he found out where I trained, specifically asked me not to let out word that he sold to me becasue he didn't want sJP at his door. The guy actually gave me an extra discount as hush money.

6. The masters club. A very nice way to suck more money out of the people you love. As with all the other initiatives they created, it kept changing. Initially master's club members got a hockey bag that they were allowed to fill with weapons. They were given a catalogue and told they could order whatever they wanted. Potentially this could be worth thousands if you ordered the right things I would imagine. They were then allowed all their sparring and weapons (read sticks) classes for free. The big perk was that there was supposed to be one class per week in Casselman at the dojo run by sJP. This very quickly changed to one class every two weeks, to one class a month, to one class every other month the last time I heard about it. The cost of this was, of course, extremely expensive. The last number I was told was $200+ per month, but as with everything else at FSD that number seemed to change based on who and when you asked.

My final word today is for shadow beast. I've been reading your crap for too long. You rant and swear for about three pages, then you come back trying to pretend you are rational and try to mea culpa. Why bother? At one point you are cursing out TKD BB, then you are saying he sounds like a smart guy. You've done the same to others, and I am sure that you will flame me. It sounds to me as though you may have a touch of mental illness - perhaps depression or bipolar disorder. Perhaps you should have that checked out based on the extremes you have shown in this forum. While I imagine that will be seen as a sarcastic attack on you, it really isn't. Either you have serious anger management issues, seriously low self esteem, or you are suffering from something. Based on what I have witnessed from you on this board, you will fit in just fine at FSD. Just a tip though - you should maybe spell check your rants because the spelling mistakes you make simply have you coming off as more of an idiot than you probably are. I doubt you have the stones to show up at GAMMA on Aug. 3, but I am sure there will be a number of people there to meet TKDBB and see if you actually are a "man of action".

[TheDingo]

A serious man would simply train and come back and write about how everyone is either correct or wrong about FSD.

Every MA has it's good and bad. Every martial artist has their weaknesses and strengths. I think people are both right and wrong about FSD.

I for one found some good points with FSD, and some negative. My striking improved, my legwork deteriorated. My torso is a lot stronger, but my flexibility has suffered. My endurance has improved. The instruction was quite disorganized, and the quality of instruction was erratic. The stations were quite the workout.

I went from Aikido (no sparring but "cooperative" practice), to Karate with point sparring (actually punching someone? Hmmm, that's new) to FSD sparring (actually making doing some continuous sparring with a more contact and no referee). Up until recently I was not comfortable with my fists -- I never learned the proper use of atemi in Aikido (even after 5 years).

I have learned that sparring is fun (I was often intimidated by it), it's not like the movies (never thought it was to begin with) and is often way less elegant than we like to pretend it is.

If one does FSD, I would caution to not buy into "The Way of Survival"... surviving against what? The candy machine down the hall where you work? It's just ego pumping, pretending to be a bad-ass -- I've seen it in other MAs and schools, it's just more obvious in FSD.

Learn what you can, don't get caught up in it all, and yes, question authority. Ask why sparring should be separate cost from regular classes -- or only included for free the BBC, isn't this supposed to be the way of surivival? Okay, small dig.

I left because over a course of a year I left class furious on several occasions. Here are a few specific examples:

a) white-sash yellow stripe grading, got arbitrarily lower score on test because it was a combined test with another student even though I knew the material (the combined test occurred because my previous two bookings for gradings were canceled (I found out when I showed up for them...) and they decided to put two gradings together to make scheduling easier for themselves)

b) same grading, same assistant instructor (not even black sash) told me I did a very basic move wrong when I didn't. I questioned that, asked to explain what was wrong (in a polite manner), and I was told "I'm out of here" -- I almost quit right there. Having to knock egos while grading bugged the hell out of me.

c) Next sash grading, heck I'd barely seen half the material in a year of training. What's with that? Had booked a private class to prepare a couple of days before, and even though it was booked, I was basically forgotten about and my private class was also competing with cell phone calls and conversations with other people. What's the advantage of the private class then, when the instructor is often not available for them, even when they are booked.

d) during sparring, as a yellow sash, I managed to slip a backhand through the guard of a brown sash -- who didn't like that and wanted to show me what for. Took a few nasty knocks to the head and ended up with a bruised up chin (even through the headgear) --- brown sash assistant instructors beating up on yellow sashes? Where's the fun there?

e) BBC classes on a few times got cancelled or combined with the regular class. I would show up for BBC class to find out it wasn't happening. Heck, I was paying $175/month to be forgotten about and to have classes change that often or not even happen?

f) Sparring classes rarely occurred, and were often cancelled (50% of the time?) -- even though there were supposed to be weekly. So I spend money for a bbc program which only gives me 1 additional class per week. This is where I really started to feel my money may be best spent elsewhere.

g) took the 1 month free. When I signed up for 6 months to try it out (in the first week), the conventiently forgot that I had the free month -- so I came up for renewal a month earlier than expected until I reminded them I actually had 7 months because of the free trial month.

h) Book (yes, Sijo's book), the student manual, posters and techniques taught in class after often different from each other with major discrepancies. Used the book and student manual to review for my gradings and I was told I had it wrong (but the book said....).

i) Heck, for lil sil die dar where hueng sao shows up in a couple of steps was NEVER shown to me in class by an instructor -- I was just pointed to the poster on the wall. Another student showed it to me. It was later explained that the poster didn't show the techniques correctly (but isn't Sijo demonstrating the techniques?) but it'll get explained/corrected for me later by an instructor at my next sash testing which included lil sil die dar.

There were benefits, which I've mentioned some of them at the beginning. For the most part, the other people in the class were great, and more often than not there was a good atmosphere.

But I don't pay that much money for something that disorganized and gets me that angry that often (I can understand once in a while, but almost every month...).

Now this is my experience in a specific school -- which doesn't mean the entire system sucks. In fact, there are good things to it -- but it won't make you a killer ninja-fu master. I think a few details are prevailent about the system in general, some are specific to people, instructors and to the school.

And as I've said before, I've never been made to sniff anything, chop wood, and though I've had encounters with assistant instructors, the Sifu treated me personally with respect (though disorganized and often forgot about our bookings for gradings/private classes/etc).

Some people like the easy going atmosphere, but to me a business is not doing me any favours if I'm paying them that much for BBC instruction.

[It is Fake]

You remind me of myself when I was leaving my art. Yes, I'll start a thread at some point with an article.

A person that was a friend told me something once, that I still believe to this day.

There was a guy basically being a dick. He was crosstraining (which was a no no) and would come back and try these techniques in sparring. When it didn't work he would hurt people with less experience.

Well, when I was talking to this young lady I said "you know_____ is a nice guy but" and she stopped me in mid sentence. She looked me right in the eye and said if he is knowingly doing something wrong how does that make him a nice guy?" She went on to say that is one of the most irritating thing she has ever heard. It is a way for people to feel good about themselves while, insulting the person.

I stopped and it changed my whole outlook on myself and other people. To me it comes from being raised to find something nice in a bad situation.

Both you and Haru look for the good yet your whole posts are negatives against FSD.

I'm glad we have positive people but, sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.

[old1o1]

Please, someone tell me, by what stretch of any imagination, is FSD a "system", an "art", a form of "self defence"?????
Really, I want to know!

Old1o1
Master of nothing.
Sitting Duck Style (formally Peking Duck)

[Stringfellow]

Stringfellow:

Oh do not get me wrong; I level no criticism towards you or anyone else posting evidence and issues involved in FSD. As I tried to suggest, it is a useful paradigm for understanding delusions in martial arts as well as other things.

My criticism is towards the individual who, despite all of this, insists on joining FSD. Now, that is his right, of course. Then he should go, train, and let people know the positive and negatives. Instead, he asks leading questions then reacts badlyto the answers. I really do not care if he is legitimate or not; he is a waste of attention. A serious man would simply train and come back and write about how everyone is either correct or wrong about FSD.

A wiseman would heed the warning of those who experienced before.

For intelligent men learn from mistakes, whereas wisemen learn from the mistakes of others.

--J.D.

Ah. I mis-interpreted your post. My apologies. I do agree, dealing with these types does add to the noise on the thread. I'd say we should stop, but then what would TKDBB do?
:new_tomat

[TKD Black Belt]

Wombat's Article

For those of you not familiar with the brilliance of Wombat (or even his skill as a BJJ/fighter) I will attempt a quick catch up. Wombat has been writing his Pride/UFC previews on MMA.tv for the last few years. These were always not only insightful but seriously funny. Just a small taste:

Aleksander Emelianenko (Russia) vs. Pawel Nastula (Poland)

Would you rather fight an Olympic level athlete or a creature spawned from the nightmares of HP Lovecraft? My choice: f*ck choosing and run like hell! Emelianenko Alexander is so creepy, he probably gives the grim reaper the willies. I am convinced he is a Shoggoth. Will he send Nastula into the many-tentacled embrace of C'thulu? I don't think so. He should have the Pope bless his water bottle and spray down Emelianenko with holy water from across the ring. Most likely outcome; Nastula wins via submission and sends Emelianenko back down the thousand shadow-cloaked steps to the gulags from whence he came.

Seems as though Jeff may have had a run in with our favourite little group (although I'm not sure where JEff was living at the time).

Too bad he wasn't there to watch Kung Fu Love! I hear the plot is killer! At one point the hero of the film says:

"I don't give a f*ck about contracts!"

Awesome movie, if you're into poo sniffing and arrow breaking!

TKD

If I agree to pay you $4k and then only pay you half can I get out of it by saying I don't care?

[Askari]

Now that is funny, Thanks TKD.

[GreenHornet]

man the shits that we are supposed to believe...

[Runner]

Hi everyone,

I'm a former member of FSD. Last summer I received an email from webmaster@learnkung-fu.com about Matrix-like screensaver and firewalkcanada.com.
The webmaster did a little mistake. He put all student's email adresses in the "TO" field so you can see about 385 adresses.
I thought we may send Sringfellow's link (http://fangshendont.blogspot.com/) to all of them.

What do you think ?

[bummer]

Oh. I'm not sure if that is against any law - but that would be brilliant!!!!
I say go for it, and if you aren't willing to do it, contact me in PM, I'll have it done!

[Goju - Joe]

Technically it's spam so not legal

[bummer]

I guess that means contact me. I'll have it done.