Fang Shen Do

[Haru_the_larger]

Bummer - Awesome post!

The pictures I have seen of Sifu Scott Hill show him wearing half gloves, not boxing gloves.

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for you guys that are ex FSD and gone on to other schools and feel that you have greatly inprooved can you give some examples of what it was that made the difference.
How did you become better fighters.

[It is Fake]

Why not shut us up.

Pictures exist of instructors in half gloves but, are never seen outside of FSD.
Articles are published about an MMA event yet, never seen outside of FSD.
The name of the MMA fight exists but, it is never seen outside of FSD.
A Magazine voting JP Instructor of the year exists but, it is never seen outside of FSD.


See a pattern?

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For Ex-FSD
If you were being honest with yourself do you think that you got beat by students from other schools because you just were'nt that good or only in the beginner levels?


It does'nt take forever to learn how to use the teaching but you won't be effectivce overnight.

Have you really practised? Or do you just expect to be good because you went to class 2 hours a week.

I think what I've learned is easy to use. Not complicated or fancy.
There are some similarities To JKD I find.

What you have to remember is that with the Phon Sao's they are just examples of things that you can do if the opportunity presents itself. Sijo hiomself says that if you go in to a fight thinking that you are gonna trap it does'nt work that way.
If your grappling instructor shows you how to do a rear naked choke form a cetain entry it does'nt mean that that is the only way to set up a rear naked choke it's just an example of one of the ways you can do it.

Phon sao drill also teach flow. You would'nt use all the examples in a fight but you do need a method of training the skill. Just like you would'nt use Chi sao in a fight. It's just a good trining exercise, and it's fun too!

[TKD Black Belt]

Enhanced (although you see to have sidesteped my last set of questions) I'll answer this one not from specific experience with ex-FSD people per say but rather on a broader more general level.

From what I've read and seen and in talking to people who have trained with FSD people the issues primarily stem from a lack of understanding the 'reality' of a fight. As you so excellently displayed in your response to me. I wasn't trying to be a jerk but life does not work the same way it does in a class.

1.) Training the same static situations with the same partners and then (as more than one person has commented) a sparring session in which these skills are not utilized does not help to learn them. I've seen BJJ clubs spend an hour on an armbar and then spar with the rule being you can only finish the match using an armbar.

2.) Competition. When was the last time FSD competed outside of the walls and rules of FSD? Like I said, I have fought well outside my comfort zone and can speak directly to the effectiveness of say a 'jumping 360 spin kick' in a 'real' fight.

3.) Exposure to new and often contradictory ideas. This is probably the hardest thing for any school to do effectively but it is the best thing for the students and instructors. I remember training with my last coach in JJJ and one of our black belts who was going through the police training brought in 10 guys who were going through the program with him. These guys were all trained fighters in other styles but my coach felt it was good practice for us to train with and possibly lose to these guys.

4.) A belief that your 'shit does in fact stink'. No one is infallible and its the humility that above all give an instructor the edge to push his students.

I hope that helps!

TKD

PS - Two things that were told to me by my coach when I started teaching TKD:

1.) If your students are not better than you when you're done, you've failed as a coach. Your job is to give them everything in order to make them better.
2.) Never ask someone to do something you won't (or can't for that matter)!

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TKD I went back a few pages and did not see the questions you were refering to would you like to ask them again?

[TKD Black Belt]

Well you offered to knock my teeth out the last time we talked but I wiil be happy if you address the points I raise in the the last post. I would like to know if FSD actually does any of these things. My only goal is to turn the world into rabid psychotic fighters ;)

TKD

PS - Bringing in Sijo's college roommate who is a deadly knife fighter doesn't count.

Just incase you wanted to remember what you were upset at me for:

- http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...&postcount=586

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TKD-
So I admit that I've been lucky and never been in a real fight.
I've had my bell rung a few time in sparring and been out grappled by a smaller a guy. Like I said in the past I'm not claiming to be a super fighter.
I started taking FSD to learn how to defend my self and I think that I can now.

Can yopu discuss what you think it is I'm missing from never have been in a real fight. I can guess but I rather hear it from somebody who has. What is the reality. Is'nt it as simple as thius guy is tryinh to hurt me so I need to hurt him first?

So you've fought in the street and the ring, is it really that hard to knock somebody out?

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TKD let me make one thing clear. I made that comment about knocking your teeth out in reaction to what you had said about skull fucking me.

Would you just sit back and take that kind of talk from somebody?

I'm clearly here to read the opinions/experiences and ask some questions. Not get into petty arguements because everything goes to sh*t then.

I'm not here to attack peole I don't know just because I don't agree with them.
People have had some unkind things to say about me, but I don't care.
I did'nt make them sign up for FSD.

Like I said I'm not some tought guy but I have my self respect and I will stand up for myself.

[It is Fake]

TKD-
So I admit that I've been lucky and never been in a real fight.
I'v

So you've fought in the street and the ring, is it really that hard to knock somebody out?

The fact that you are asking this question shows your MA exist inside a bubble.

[TKD Black Belt]

Please read the whole list of points I address in post #620.

Here is the error as I see it that you are making (and bare with me as this truth often hurts) a good fighter AVOIDS FIGHTS. You have on numerous occasions commented that 'you can handle yourself' or 'you know how to hurt people' and both those comments scare the f*ck out of me. No one knows how they will react in a street fight, that's what makes it a street fight.

You say '..and I think I can..' I'm telling you that quite frankly without extra training in a more 'reality based' system you can't. If you go digging through the train wreck of a post Gracie's and McDojo you'll see my credentials posted there. Suffice to say I have a lot of ring and training experience. Enough so that I teach a 'hand to hand' course to some local LEO. That said I'll give you two scenarios.

1.) A guy elbows me in the ribs as he goes by, I turn back towards him and as 'dumb luck' would have it my head wasn't were he thought it was and he punched a marble bar. That was a fight! No amount of training could prepare me for that other than perhaps some awareness from being in fights and knowing not to stand still when they start.

2.) TKD Black Belt was chatting up a cute blonde at the bar who neglected to mention her boyfriend (not really my fault you see) well said BF was a little annoyed at TKD and without letting me know he was going to start fighting grabbed my collar and started punching me in the side of the head.

How hard is it to KO someone? Well in 10 years of fighting (at least at a resonably high level in TKD and some MT) I have only ever KOd two people and never been KOd myself. My last opponent took about 10 hammer fists to the side of the head and was still moving around (betcha Sijo forgot to mention that, eh?) and willing to fight.

Your other comment regarding someone trying to hurt you so you do it first also leads me to believe that the SD you have done is staged and not realistic.

My favourite quote to people I'm teaching SD to:

"A fight in a ring or cage is controlled, a ref walks out explains the rules and then you start when he says. A street fight starts when I feel I have the best chance of winning, I don't have to tell you when."

Now I'm not a bully or street fighter (never initiated one with the exception of when I was bouncing) but I'm realistic enough to realise that without the wide range of training I bring to a situation (and I'm still learning) I'd have been in a lot of trouble more than once.

TKD

"Dude if someone was doing that shit in my room, I'd beat the piss out of him, wait for him to heal and beat him up again" MTG to TJ during the first episode of TUF1

PS - The Skull Fuck comment was a tactical ploy to draw you into a discussion and show you that your comfort zones are small. Also in a fight if I think that trash talk with give me the edge, I'm going to say far worse than that ;)

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Is it Fake,
I think it's a fair question. All it says is I've never been in a fight. I think that's good luck.

I don't know what that says about FSD. It's my personal experience.

Am I supposed to be ashamed because I've never had to fight in the street?
I'm not in training to fight in contests. I'm just training so I won't be intimidated and look like bitch in front of my family.

Every man needs to be able to stand up for him self win or lose.

TKD:

Point 1)
This is a good point absolutley. In sparring we work on a specific technique AND we have free sparring whre we can strike kick grapple phon sao and what have you.
At that point it really is up to the student to utilize the techniques they have learned in class. If they just wildly swing then they have nobody to blame but themselves if they don't get better. Don't you think?
Any advances I've made have been because I tried to use what I was taught during sparring. That's where you find out what you are good at, when somebody is tying to hit you.
I think some students never figured that out and that's why they did'nt get better. They tried something once were'nt good and gave up.
My Sifu can teaxch me a lot but only I can give myself the courage.

[It is Fake]

You ask if it is easy to KO someone.

If there was any realistic contact done, in your school, you would know the answer to this question. So, in other words, it does reflect badly on your school's training method.

[TKD Black Belt]

Point 1)
This is a good point absolutley. In sparring we work on a specific technique AND we have free sparring whre we can strike kick grapple phon sao and what have you.
At that point it really is up to the student to utilize the techniques they have learned in class. If they just wildly swing then they have nobody to blame but themselves if they don't get better. Don't you think?
Any advances I've made have been because I tried to use what I was taught during sparring. That's where you find out what you are good at, when somebody is tying to hit you.
I think some students never figured that out and that's why they did'nt get better. They tried something once were'nt good and gave up.
My Sifu can teaxch me a lot but only I can give myself the courage.

Actually I'm going to disagree with you. "Free Sparring" as you have defined it, especially when directly related to techniques in class, should focus n those techniques. As for who to blame if they don't get better you need to continue onto the rest of my points, I point the finger solely at the teacher. Read Sun Tzu and you'll see this concept is not a new one. "When the order is given and not executed, first repeat the order to ensure clarity then punish the leader for failing to instruct his troops!"

Your second point 'only I can give myself courage', again I disagree. Courage is innate and not something taught in class or 'given' as it were by oneself. A study was done on soldiers and what they found was that the soldiers who did drills and such with fake or no bullets performed much lower in a live combat situation than the soldiers who always had live rounds in their weapons. That is the point of drilling a pac soa to inside low kick and then sparring pac soa to inside low kick with increasing levels of opposition to the technique.

Go poke your head into a BJJ club in town and watch the instructor pace the floor watching for correct technique and application. Go to a MT club or a boxing club and you'll see the same thing. Technique offered, technique drilled and technique used.

Train like you fight and fight like you train!

TKD

Never blame yourself for your instructor's failures but take pride in your mistakes as they are the one thing in the world that you can truly call your own!

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When we spar it's not to hurt the other guy. At higher levels after you've got some experience then you're encouraged to go harder.

How do you learn to use technique if you are knocking each other out?
Trust me I understand what you're saying and I think it's important to use realism.
But for somebody like me I'm learning to become comfortable with somebody hitting me. Not everyboy is as OK with that as some of you seem to be.

Over the course of time I've really gotten more comfortable and relaxed in a sparring situatuon. I've been able to take stronger hits and keep coming, not back off and return those punches thrown.

From what I see this is success.

Maybe my comfort zone is'nt huge but it's getting bigger all the time. If it can work for me I don't see why it can't work for others.