Fang Shen Do

[PeterPantsless]

Wow! According to those standards, I am a GrandMaster!!!!

[GreenHornet]

yeah its a good article, but MA cultish behavior can be so much more subtle... when I was in FSD it was all about the atmosphere.

seriously I expected more controversy to be brought here about FSD
I think it kind of confirm what I said: FSD students don't go and read about MAs on the net, they are ignorent... it's sad
well if other FSD ppl quit and come here after I hope they will find this thread and aknowledge the fact that they are not alone.

[scott4]

[Shawarma]

Who did you fight.

[Wounded Ronin]

wow thats pretty fucked up...
the worst moment I had there was in the training camp when there was sparring between 2 girls and they freaked out. One of them, after being hitted, screamed "bitch!" and the fight went to the ground (oh the Irony!) and it became a nice catfight. eventually sifu M. intervented and stopped the fight... He really looked pissed off and he was tauting something like "were here to learn !!!"

Well, that might just have been worth over a hundred bucks to see. :evil:



About the seijo's outburst: it sounds to me like he knows what he is teaching is bullshit, and that makes him extremely paranoid.

[TehDeadlyDimMak]

Sherdog lists only 1 fighter named Scott scHILLing who attained a loss in his only fight.

No Scott Hills. And this was an MMA match you say?

[TehDeadlyDimMak]

Please make the articles available for review. It's difficult to take things at face value.

[TehDeadlyDimMak]

Sherdog also does not have any records for Patenaude.

What is the name of the organization you said you fought in again?

[Askari]

Scott, yes, please scan in and post all related materiel. But props for posting rationally.

But why aren't you listed on either Fcfightfinder.com or sherdog as having participated in MMA? There are no such events listed there either. Nor is there any hits on google for this event or a group called the WECF. Sounds very shady to me. If you wanted to prove yourself in the ring there are some very good organizations that would be very willing to host you, such as TKO or Apex or the UGC, very legit and above board. And they pay well too.

Overall, sounds like you were worried you would lose at the event and so did not tell anyone in advance, you know you got lucky and dont want to try it in a legit event. I am sure that the above mentioned venues would be very interested in seeing you in the ring.

But aside from the MMA events, what are your thoughts on the more serious problems people have posted about your style of FSD. What of the abusive behaviours and threats towards students? The whole money before ability thing? And the examples some have mentioned surrounding the shaddy history of your clubs. For example: closing one day when they were all called "Wing Chun Do" clubs and re-opening as "Feng Shen Do" clubs.

[GreenHornet]

well I had doubt about the fights because everything around it was so mysterious, but if you can back it up its fine with me.
but you see its not only about the teachers, its also about the students.
Ok so you won fights without a doubt it gives you credibility as a fighter, but what about the students? why don't you encourage them to compete too?
if we make a comparison with the school where Im training a this moment, several students go and compete in BJJ competitions, and win firsts places.
my current teachers has won the UGC lightweight title, great but that does not make ME a good fighter.
And about the fight being arranged ... well I don't know the organisation for fought under, but the MMA events I saw in montreal were pretty well regulated.

Anyway those fights (at least for me) are not the most important matter.
the main problems with FSD actually are: 1.the prices 2.the lack of ground work 3. the lack of sparring integrated into the classes

remember MA are not only about the teacher, they are also about the students.

[Wounded Ronin]

Thanks for stopping by to discuss your position, Scott.

Hello Everyone

I do not usually respond to these types of messages -I believe that as long as I know what I am and what I have done, that s all that is important For some reason, I seem to be a target for people with too much time on their hands. I am not sure what I have done to you, but let's set the record straight

You play innocent, but you start off with a generic, cliched ad hominem. "If you take the time to criticise, or even write about your personal negative experiences in a 2 page article, you have too much time on your hands."

What is this "too much time on your hands" cliche that everyone seems to fling around? Isn't the person logging on to make that accusation using up the same amount of time as the person he's accusing?


That's brave of you and all, but it dosen't prove anything factually.


Just another ad hominem attack. "If you take the time to criticize, you're a useless chit-chat artist. I, on the other hand, am a hard-training humble martial disciple. Even though I am writing about this subject now just like you are."

I am often asked why we don't do it again. I tell people that it seems (based on my experience) to be a crooked business. Sifu Pat's opponent was changed twice and he eventually fought (and beat) opponent 2-weigh classes above him. From what I have heard, the promoter was yelling at the referee to re-start my match after Marc had tapped out. He wanted the hometown favorite to win. All in all, I would rather concentrate on my school and students and help them achieve their goals.

So, what, you're saying that *all* MMA promoters are crooked and stack the fights, and therefore you'll never do MMA again? That's an obvious logical fallacy you're making. Why don't you simply pick a different venue if you're interested in refining and perfecting your martial path?

As I said, I usually do not respond to these types of writing, as there are no winners. As long as you have someone who wants to stir shit, bad-mouth others and is able to use the Internet to remain anonymous, this types of posts are going to happen.

There's a difference between idle rumor mongering and saying things that can be substantiated with facts. On this site, we often take the time to do actual investigations, which includes making phone calls, obtaining legal records, and so forth.

Just another ad hominem you're making. "If you dare criticize, it's automatically idle rumors and nothing more."


Good. Now we're talking.

[Askari]

I have to add to this that from what I have heard in terms of descriptions of the various instructors Mr Scott Hill is the one described as being fairly normal. Given this description I am more then passingly interested in his description with regards to the other assertions about these clubs.

I guess another question is, has he ever met any of the instructors of Jacques Patenaude and or seen certificates that prove his right to teach a style of martial arts. Any style that is. I personally do not want to simply discredit people who have gone their own way, so long as what they are teaching is effective and their student body is not abused in the process. A

dd to this that at some point it would help if they were actually certified to teach at least one MA before they declared themselves the 10th degree super soke/sijo.

[Jaric]

So let me get this straight. Two fighters that only practice FSD fought in a MMA match and won? Bullshit. Everyone knows that Kung Fu ppl do not fight in and do not win MMA matches. No grappling skills whatsoever and won? We need pics/vids/ or a whole hella lot of written evidence.

[scott4]

Hello All

Thanks for your comments

This is time-consuming, so I will scan in the documents and post my answers at the same time - will need to use my scanner at work for this.

" have to add to this that from what I have heard in terms of descriptions of the various instructors Mr Scott Hill is the one described as being fairly normal. Given this description I am more then passingly interested in his description with regards to the other assertions about these clubs." -
Fairly normal? - I am not sure if that is meant as a compliment or insult!!!

I would be happy to address all concerns, but I don't see any resolution to this - I stand behind Sijo and the Instructors 100% - but as I said, I will be happy to make all the material avalaible and adress any concerns brought up.....

For now - I did fight in a professional MMA event, was paid for it, and can back it up. Look for a post in a day or two

tks

[Stringfellow]

I have trained under Scott and I would have to agree that he certainly is a nice guy. He's very approachable and doesn't have the ego than the others I've dealt with. I've always enjoyed his classes and he always seems to enjoy teaching. I have often wondered how he got involved with the Patenaude's and wondered why he has chosen to stay with them for so long. I'm certain that he could do quite well on his own.

Scott, I'm impressed that you've come forward to clear the air on this issue. I would encourage you to stick around and offer your side of the bigger FSD story. While you may perceive many of the posts here to be attacks, I think that if you look at them objectively you'll see that they are in fact just direct questioning. Most people here are willing to listen, but they won't put up with spin-doctoring or any other bull. They demand substatiation. If you've read the articles that myself and Green Hornet have written and find you disagree with us, then by all means say so and tell us why we're wrong.

If you've read this thread through from the beginning, you've seen some of the experiences that former students have shared as well as some of the questions that they have asked. Perhaps you can shed some light on these and give us a better understanding of FSD. I know that I still have many more questions that I haven't even asked yet.

In the end it's up to you. By sticking around you have a chance at changing some minds, though if you truly participate in the discussion you may risk your own faith. You're probably the most articulate of the "inner circle" and so a good representative in this type of forum. I, for one, wholeheartedly hope that you do stick around, but I'll understand if you don't.