Fang Shen Do

[enhanced]

Alright Corvus, you have my attention, let's hear your story.
I've read all the others.

Now all the shit talking aside, this has nothing to do with FSD. It's all me.

I understand the importance of grappling, really I do. While I'm totally prepared to knock a dude out I just don't see me breaking a guys arm in an arm bar unless he messed with my family had a weapon or something serious like that.
(I guess you can choke somebody out instead if you can get the choke, which you should if you are trained).

The legal ramifications could be more that it's worth. You can be the victiom of an attack and wind up with an assault charge.
True, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 but you have to consider things like this because Canada's justice system is stacked on the side of the offender NOT the victim.

But really, would n't you rather take a guy out on your feet?
What's wrong with trying to get out of the grappling range and stand up. It's MUCH safer.
If other people are gonna jump in and stack the odds against me I'd rather be able to move freely and run.
If you are on the ground your f*cked now, aren't you?

To end a fight with grappling you either break something or render the opponent unconcious. It's risky. You are not going to submit somebody and have him tap out in a street encounter.

So let me have it boys!

[PeterPantsless]

Being able to go into and out of the grappling range at will, requires that you know how to grapple. An extreme example of this would be Chuck Lidell. Excellent striker, very hard to take down, and even harder to keep down. His grappling skills allow him to fight where he wants to. But hey, we are all not Chuck Lidells, and you were refering to a self defence situation. You don't have to break a bone to win a fight with grappling. There are plenty of moves and positions to control or hold an opponent. There are also throws. As for me, I prefer the touch of death.

Grappling is alot of fun, and I think you would really enjoy it if you tried it. I'm pretty sure every school in Ottawa will give you a trial class. Why not give it a go?

[Askari]

Hi Enhanced,

Nice try on the thread drift.

Gives us a chance to really unload on the myth that you can "stand back up" if you are fighting a good grappler who wont let you.

The legal ramifications could be more that it's worth.

This though is your biggest error, thinking that pummeling someone into unconscousness is a better legal option then controlling techniques such as restraints and come-alongs.

Someone earlier in this thread already posted that one of the Fang Shen Do Sifus (I think it was a Sifu named Martin) was easily beat by a guy with only a couple of weeks of grappling. Now I dont know the full details, but seems to be a major hole in their style to completely ignore clinch/takedown and ground game. A supposedly self-defence oriented style that ignores a giant part of reality seems a little difficult to swollow.

Here is the reality of it. If you as a Fang Shen Do fighter (who has never trained wrestling or BJJ) are fighting a grappler who does not like you - you are going to be underneath him, he is going to be on top of you hitting you - headbutting you. It is only if you are really lucky that he will gently put you to sleep with a choke. If you are particularily unlucky he is going to break your arms first, then choke you out.

Beware the sharks if you go out to swim.




Edited to add, as PeterP posted; grappling training is fun. It is challanging and rewarding. Why worry about fighting a grappler? Go join a BJJ/wrestling/Sambo or Judo club and become the grappler - Then the stand up only fighters will need to worry about you.






Side note, any legitimate instructor would be more then happy to show you his completely clear criminal record check that he can pick up from the Police station. These checks only cost him a few dollars and it is a fellony to create a fraudulant one. I suggest that anyone contemplating any form of Martial training consider checking their instructors history in this fashion.

This is not my original idea, see 24fightingchickens.

[TKD Black Belt]

How do you get blood out of silk

Alright Corvus, you have my attention, let's hear your story.
I've read all the others.

- Corvus has been strangely silent for the past little while. I suspect he's collect poo for the next midnight rendezvous.

Now all the shit talking aside, this has nothing to do with FSD. It's all me.

- "Hey Pot!" "Yes kettle?" "Dude, you're black!"

I understand the importance of grappling, really I do. While I'm totally prepared to knock a dude out I just don't see me breaking a guys arm in an arm bar unless he messed with my family had a weapon or something serious like that.
(I guess you can choke somebody out instead if you can get the choke, which you should if you are trained).

- Dude that's like trying to drive a car and never turning right! I'm so tired of this statement "Oh, I'm so dangerous I can keep the fight standing!" No you aren't and no you can't. I don't even know you and I will bet you a stack of old Kung Fu mags against your black sash that I can put your bitch ass on the ground and essentially sk*ll f*ck you!

The legal ramifications could be more that it's worth. You can be the victiom of an attack and wind up with an assault charge.

- Someone from FSD familiar with the legal ramifications of assault!?! Colour me surprised. By the by, legally a less lethal defense (ie. those chokes and holds you talk about) will get you in far less trouble than teeing of on some schmuck! Ask Sijo....

True, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 but you have to consider things like this because Canada's justice system is stacked on the side of the offender NOT the victim.

- What planet are you living on. Its called SELF DEFENSE for a reason, I'm defending myself! I didn't throw a flying arm bar on you as you walked out of Tim Hortons!

But really, would n't you rather take a guy out on your feet?

- Personally I don't care where the fight goes that's part of the reason I train with a range of trainers.

What's wrong with trying to get out of the grappling range and stand up. It's MUCH safer.

- To who? You talk about legal ramifications yet what you fail to grasp is that I won't look like the aggressor during the fight. If you continue to work to your feet and have difficulty controlling me there, then you look like the aggressor!

If other people are gonna jump in and stack the odds against me I'd rather be able to move freely and run.

- Perhaps, but as a former bouncer I can make your friend make noises that will make you seriously question the wisdom of letting me get my hands on you. Fear is a great weapon my friend!

If you are on the ground your f*cked now, aren't you?

- Nope, see above answers.

To end a fight with grappling you either break something or render the opponent unconcious. It's risky. You are not going to submit somebody and have him tap out in a street encounter.

- If that's what Sijo says then that must be right, right? Oh, and I'm well aware that there is no ref in the street.

So let me have it boys!

- You know, I'm going to leave that alone.

TKD:chewy:

You're only ghey if you enjoy it!

[GreenHornet]

an other article about fsd: http://www.hebdos.net/sor/edition31/...icle_id=122075

its in french so I will translate:

we dont stop seeing those empty handed on the big screen. movies like kill bill and crouching tiger hidden dragon revived one of the oldest chinese martial art. Patenaude's kung-fu school, located on Provencher street at brossard, is a place were we teach respect, discipline, and combat techniques. Seeing how their students handle themselves, bruce lee and jackie chan can go back to their dojos.
since last summer, the school receives people from all ages who want to learn the bases of a self defence system. Based on the fang shen do method, the learned combat techniques here favorise stances, footwork, blocking, kicking and striking, weapon handling and meditation. in fact, it favorise balance and intense energy level, the chi. the learning is interated in consideration of everyone rythm, note Marc Beauchamp, chief instructor and owner of the location and kung-fu adept since a very long time. "you need to try it to understand it. this class is open to everyone where we teach techniques, in considertion of the goals ans the objectives of every student."
he belives that kung-fu develop a lot of aptitudes from psychological ones to physicals ones. "we offer tools that will help the student to progress at every levels of their developement. here we get a better self confidence and patience, but also a better peripherical visual acuity and a better physical shape.
the taos, those stances demonstration like katas in judo, and the movements of shaolin, the most complete form of kung-fu, are putted aside to make more room to a more pure method, more simple.
the techniques learned in the classes can be applied in every day life. its a life style, says the trainer. " the fight, is not only the one wich is physical, but also the one for wich we fight everyday. a lot of students come and get tools in our classes."
lots of testimonials available on the website goes in this way. lots of people found in kung-fu a huge source of happiness and motivation. One, which the name is reduced to Ulrick for the sake of his anonymy, says that kung-fu helped him: " there are days when I lack patience and I and to quit everything, but I persist and never give uo." an other, Mathieu G., found in this martial art a way "to discover a potential and a confidence that are useful at every moment in life."
M. Beauchamp defend himself quite well when the word violence is pronounced. For him, it is a defensice art more than offensive in which the mental aspect makes 90% of the word. the 10% remaining, its the physical shape that accomplishes it. "we teach to students to defend themselves in different situation and not to attack. its a combat technique that gives skills to defend oneself in front of the enemy and to not freeze in those situations. kung-fu, its an exit door."
around 40 students aged between 5 and 50 years old come all week long at the school to perfect their techniques. a rising tendency since the opening of the school, says the owner.
" there is a attraction to combat arts. I dont know if the movies helped the augmentation of the nomber of the clients, but they certainly didnt disencouraged it."

ok.. katas in judo I was not aware of that.
marc is not that old in fsd... I was there more than him, but since he had experence in tkd I guess we can say he knows a bit about MAs.
Ulrick, I trained with him, hes a nice guy but hes not a very talented fighter, well thats what I can say about his techniques. I never sparred him, but even if hes way taller than me (the guy heights almost 2 meters) I would not be afraid to spar him.

[GreenHornet]

http://www.ag-sambo-defense.com/foru...695790f62b5960
on this sambo forum from France they advertise about a open and freestyle meeting between sambo and fsd members. now I know that there is a student that went in France to open a school, but Im not sure if it was in Grenoble.

[Askari]

Standing Back Up

Enhanced,

You did hit one point that is close to true. In the concrete jungle, if your strategy is to disengage and run from combat then you do need the ability to stand back up from the ground.

The main point is that only a good grappler is going to be able to make the choice about the phase of combat. Chuck Liddell can control the fight as a stand up fight because his wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu are so good that he can do that.

The way that we have seen Fang Shen Do trained in its videos and described by people does not allow them to control which phase of combat the fight occurs in. There exists a triangle of support between the stand-up fighting, the wrestling and the Jiu-Jitsu. You cant have one without the others.




GH, good hits (Sorry I got your current club mixed up)- The Fang Shen Do guys that get the chance to spar with Sambo fighters should broaden their skills fairly quickly. I wonder what their Sijo thinks though, he now has a school that doesnt agree that he is the complete uber master he wants to be seen as. Since he likely owns 51% of that school, will we see a change of who owns the other 49%?

[Stringfellow]

GreenHornet: Great job finding Marc Beauchamp's comments. I especially get a kick out of the reference to the testimonials. I was looking at the ones on the FSD website recently and noted a couple of them are by people who have since left the system. That's the thing with testimonials - you never know how old they are.

[Stringfellow]

Corvus and his story

While we would all like to hear Corvus' story, I don't think we should hold our breath for it anytime soon. If he were to post anything now, it would be a trivial matter for the FSD gang to identify him, and they certainly wouldn't appreciate whatever his story is. He may still be training, possibly working to make an easy exit, and that could take some time. When anyone leaves, these guys get concerned, and if there's even a chance that you owe them any money they'll pester you to get it. I've known some people who have planned and executed their exit from FSD over a period of months. Seems weird, but if you've ever experienced the culture of FSD you'd understand.

I'm sure that once Corvus is in a position where he can share his story without worry, we'll hear it. I, for one, can't wait.

[TKD Black Belt]

You know I can buy into a crappy system. Lord knows there are enough of them out there, but you make this school sound like a bad marriage. Having to pack bags at night and leave in order to not get caught sneaking out of the gym. I'm more tempted than ever to look into that month worth of free FSD just to see if the 'evil' is real or not.

TKD

"Just take your silly silk pajamas and go home!"

[Askari]

Mike Storms Karate

Ok, following up on a PM here, what does Mike Storms Karate have to do with all of this?

There is a hint at some sort of business relationship there.

[enhanced]

- "Hey Pot!" "Yes kettle?" "Dude, you're black!"

?

- Dude that's like trying to drive a car and never turning right! I'm so tired of this statement "Oh, I'm so dangerous I can keep the fight standing!" No you aren't
and no you can't. I don't even know you and I will bet you a stack of old Kung Fu mags against your black sash that I can put your bitch ass on the ground and essentially sk*ll f*ck you!

"Oh, I'm so dangerous I can keep the fight standing!" Where did I write that ? You made that up.

I don't know you either and I hope I never meet you you don't sound very smart.

My only fear would be when I smash all your teeth out of your mouth I would cut my knuckles and get one of your low life degenerate diseases.
Shut your fucking mouth.
Do not disrespect me I've never been disrespectful to you or anybody on here.
I don't deserve that sort of bullshit.

- Someone from FSD familiar with the legal ramifications of assault!?!
You think just because I train in FSD I can't read? You really generalize to much You know that?
Instead of a conversation you are looking for a fight conrads! Welcome to grade 5.



- What planet are you living on. Its called SELF DEFENSE for a reason, I'm defending myself! I didn't throw a flying arm bar on you as you walked out of Tim Hortons!

You don't know to much about the law do you? You can fight back but only to a point. Then you cross the line and can be charged, it does'nt matter if you were defending yourself if you are deemed to have escalated the situation.


Perhaps, but as a former bouncer I can make your friend make noises that will make you seriously question the wisdom of letting me get my hands on you. Fear is a great weapon my friend!

How? If you're tied up on the ground it leaves you open to attacks that you never see coming because you have tunnel vision, that's what happens in a fight
If you are on the ground and tied up you can easily be stomped. It just that simple.


- If that's what Sijo says then that must be right, right? Oh, and I'm well aware that there is no ref in the street.

You're telling me you're gonna submit somebody in a street fight? What ever.

Like I've ALWAYS said since I showed up here it's important to know how to grapple, I'vernever said otherwise, but some of you guys watch to many Sporting events on TV.
In the UFC you can't crush testicles or gouge eyes. Grappling is great, I love it too but it's not the end all of fighting.

Now who Black?

[Askari]

Like I've ALWAYS said since I showed up here it's important to know how to grapple, I'vernever said otherwise, but some of you guys watch to many Sporting events on TV.
In the UFC you can't crush testicles or gouge eyes. Grappling is great, I love it too but it's not the end all of fighting.

I hope you dont mind that I just ignore the rest of your post? I sort of prefer a slightly more moderate tone. We are here to learn about your style of FSD, if you really wanted to fight you'd go to tournaments. :5football

So you've trained grappling eh? Please, define it for me as FSD understands grappling to be?

What makes you assume that a real grappler has never considered the dreaded testicle crush attack? Or eye gouging? But first you typed about how you would know when to legally stop in a fight, but then comment that you need to gouge the guys eyes out to win?



The problem is, that in order to actually execute a technique, at some point in your life you are going to have to practice that technique prior to needing it in a high stress situation. So you are telling me that Fang Shen Do has you practicing how to eye gouge someone on a regular basis? This seems a little bizarre to me.



Mike Reilly wrote a really good article on the necessity of competition, I strongly recommend it as reading materiel for any serious student of the Martial Arts.

Mike Reilly wrote:

[GreenHornet]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...407#post920407

refer yourself to this about the effectiveness of grappling, you can actually stop a fight by using a submission.

the main difference between the people here and the people in fsd is that we are ready to use grappling AND striking in our training, we dont consider grappling the all end of Martial arts.
on the other side fsd instructors refuse to integrate real grappling in their curriculum. they consider striking the all end.

why do you learn martial arts? to know how to bite and eye gouge? everyone knows how to do that, and what is telling you that a grappler couldnt do that on you when he has you under him?

by the way the goal of grappling is to learn how to WIN on the ground, no matter the weight or the strenght difference. Its not like someone with grappling experience still had a 50\50 % chance of wining if he started grappling in the street. there is always the possibility that you lose, but the goal of training is to win...

[It is Fake]

For those that don't want to read enhanced post here it is.

Blah....Blah....Blah.....street.........Blah...... ..Blah....Blah.......no ref in the street......blah....blah.....blah....multiple attackers...blah...blah...blah.....self defense......blah....blah.....blah....legal ramifications....blah....blah.....blah....educatio nal insult......blah..blah...blah


Sorry forgot blah....blah....blah......dreaded internet challenge......blah....blah...blah.


I always find it sad when you insult someone's intelligence then, make grammar and punctuation mistakes.

Especially, mistakes you should've been corrected on, in "Grade 5".:bootyshak