Fang Shen Do

[enhanced]

1.Catherine St. Head quarters.

2.Sifu Pat and Sifu Martin.
Both great instructors who have always answer my questions and treated me well. I've trained under other instructors and have positive feedback regarding them as well. Sifu Scott is one of them. If you read back over this thread you will see nothing but respect for that man and it's no wonder why.

3.No.

4.Call the club if you want to know how much it costs.


5. No.

6.Twice.

As far as my legitness well take it or leave it I don't care.Like I sais I've got nothing to prove.
I've admitted there are some issues that need anwers but I'm here to make this a 2 sided discussion.

This is a martial art system that I beleive in. I have fun when I go and that's what counts.

You don't get to the top with out making some enemies. Which is where I think FSD is. They have what 20 schools? They're doing something right.

But at the same time I'm just a student there. This is'nt my fight or my questions to answer. I'm just letting the good people that read this thread know that it is not all intimidatuion and shit smelling. By the way if that happened I just don't know what to say.
However I will say that training camp was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

Now Askari you know why I won't go to a BJJ club and try one of their guys out.
I addressed that in my last post.
I have nothing to prove.
I'm not the great champion of FSD, there are others much more qualified than I, that's for sure.
I know that there are guys who train BJJ that are better grapplers that I. I admit that.
I'm talking about the average dude who wants to try me out because he thinks he's tough and wants to impress his buddies. A street encounter.
I train to be better than the average guy on the street. I'm not looking to compete.

marcdscott,
well good question.
But I beleive it's the guy fighting, not the style.
I don't see how what I've learned is not good. I've read a lot over the years and so far evey other respected MA that I've leared about is speaking about similar stuff.
Plus when you spar and it comes down to 2 guys hitting each other. I've noticed that over time I'm getting hit a lot less and hitting a lot more.
FSD is not going to teach you a bunch of flash without substance. I can use what I'm learning. It is Functional Simple and Direct.
I've really learned how to hurt people.

[Askari]

Sifu Pat and Sifu Martin.
Both great instructors who have always answer my questions

Now go and ask them about their dad's qualifications. Tell them you have read this thread and want to see proof he trained at all before doing Wing Chun Do/ Century 200 kung fu/ Patenaude's Kung-fu /Fang Shen Do.

Let us know how positively they treat you then.

know that it is not all intimidatuion and shit smelling. By the way if that happened I just don't know what to say.

The Shit Smelling happened, I now have several sources that were there. No Pics yet though.

I have nothing to prove.

Actually you do. You came on here and told us that it is effective. The burden of proof is on you. Step up to the plate - there are kickboxing/MMA/grappling/Karate tournaments every weekend in Montreal/Toronto/Hamilton. Enter and post us the video of how you do.

I've really learned how to hurt people.

Good for you. Now go buy a baseball bat and learn what every 12 year old already knew about fighting. Its easy to hurt people.

I know that there are guys who train BJJ that are better grapplers that I. I admit that.

Actually, they are just plain better fighters then you are. Because they actually train to fight, no fantom elbows.

Did you watch the videos? And you actually think you got the transformer for Christmass and not the winter socks?

[enhanced]

Cdnronin,
Thank you this can be a good discussion even if we don't agree as long as we are civil. I know I'm the underdog here. But I've stepped up so i'll take what i get. But I'm not going to answer all questios, they are'nt mine to answer.

I don't have any other MA experience.

I'm not a small guy by any means. But I was easily pushed around so I was an easy target.

What I got from FSD was the aggresivness i so badly needed.
Could I have gotten that else where? probably, but FSD IS where I got it and I'm so thankful for it.

I've seen see Sijo speak plenty of times and I'll tell you this guys is'nt just talk, he would fuck you up.
The Sifu's are not bullshitting either. I won't speak for them because that would be disrespectful (and I'm all about respect) but man, earlier in the thread some guy was talking about going to Sifu's club to take him on. Well I hope he can back his mouth up. These guys are skilled.

Have I sen them fight no. But I would'nt slap a pitbull in the face either. Would'nt matter if I'd seen him bite the mailman's ass or not.

These men carry themselves in a way that I wanted others to see me. They have self confidence and it shows. I like that.

[BoardHitBack]

I'm in a similar boat to Corvus. I'm a current student of FSD. I have been reading this thread for about a week now and I'll admit that most of the things I've read have disheartened me.

Hey man. Honestly I'm glad it has disheartened you. You really need to look the cost-benefit ratio of FSD. You really need to look at the quality of the instruction and its sources. A guy with a few weeks on Demile's instructor course is not a quality instructor

I admit that there have been some interesting points brought up it's undeniable.
But none of you can say or prove that the system is not effective for self defense.
I can't prove to you that it is either. But in my mind I have no doubt that I can defend myself.

Ok. Are you not prepared to take the word of long time FSD students who after joining other schools and finding their training was not adequate? No? Still it should give you pause for thought. And the thing is.....you really should be able to prove it is effective for self-defense, if you are making the claim that it is.

But I can easily hold my own against the average dude on the street who wants to fight me.
I may one day face a trained grapppler who wants to fight and well, we'll see what happens then but, I'm not worried about the average asshole on the street.
Period.

Here's a little secret knowledge. The average asshole has fought before. You don't know him from Adam either. You can't know he hasn't boxed or wrestled. You can't know he hasn't spent ten years in the mountains of japan training budo karate. You don't know he isn't a submission fighter. You don't know alot about the guy. You certainly don't know he is an average fighter. If he doesn't worry you then you are in real trouble. If he isn't one of those suburban guys who've never fought anyone outside his safe little world, and you fucked if you haven't fought anyone outside of a safe little world.

I don't say any of this to slam you. That isn't the point. I just want you to step back and think about these things. Hang around and see if you can understand where everyone is coming from.

[Askari]

I missed one:

I'm talking about the average dude who wants to try me out because he thinks he's tough and wants to impress his buddies. A street encounter.

Man you have watched too many movies.

So you think you are ready for the chest beating fight of the 15 year old in the school yard who wants to "test" you? That is your idea of a street encounter? That is monumentally stupid. That is not self-defence. I've heard that there are guys on the "Street" who actually carry "gasp" weapons, and just might not tell you that they are about to mug you. Not there to "test" you or impress his drunken frat buddies at the bar.

Edited to add: I cross posted that with BoardHitBack. It really jumped out at us.

We have spoken about BJJ. Now lets talk about Sayoc Kali, these guys have knives and a lot of them grapple. Lets talk about Dog-Brothers, guys who can fight with a weapon and grapple.

Now how do you measure up against real Martial Artists? Have you been to a gathering of the pack for the Dog Brothers?




I remember being a kid too. Just rather you saw through this before it got you hurt.

[Stringfellow]

Corvus and enhanced,

Assuming that you are who you say you are (and I'm willing to believe, but you can understand our skepticism), let me first congratulate you both on posting here, whatever your views. It takes guts to walk into a room when you know you won't be popular.

Let me also say that I can relate to you both - because I was there. You say you're not drinking the kool-aid, but back then I would have answered the same to anyone who suggested it to me (and some did). Only later did I realize it.

I can also understand how you feel about your abilities. After working my way up the ranks I was feeling pretty good, too. I could hold my own during sparring and found myself getting better and better at not getting hit (and landing my own). The funny thing was, though, I had to "throw out" a lot of what I learned to do it. Have you ever tried to block (er - I mean re-direct) a punch using anything except maybe a pak sao? Once I stopped trying that's when I started to improve. So why all of the phon saos? That started to bug me, especially when there was so much emphasis on them.

When I first had my doubts about the effectiveness of Fang Shen Do I still continued to train - figuring maybe I was missing something. Besides, all of my instructors were telling me how good I was and that I could take on blacks belts from those other, lesser systems. But as time went on and I kept looking at it critically, my doubts increased. At the higher ranks, we would often experiment while doing drills (mostly when the instructor was busy with the other groups). Sometimes we would resist our partner as he tried whatever technique we were working on. I often found that as soon as that element was introduced the technique became difficult if not possible to pull off (and I noticed this in both roles, so it wasn't just that I sucked).

The nail in the coffin for me was when a friend of mine finally talked me into trying out a class with this grappling instructor. I figured with what I had learned from FSD (we had grappling, right?) I should be able to show them a thing or two. Needless to say, I got schooled - like seriously. I was dumb-founded. And they started showing me stuff. Not just "here are the basics" stuff, but anything I wanted to know. Some of it I couldn't pull off, but I was blown away that they were willing to show me. No secrets. No special clubs.

Believe it or not, I still continued to train FSD after that, but it was getting harder and harder to do. Since my eyes had been opened, I was starting to see all of the problems with what they taught. And sparring after that, well, I found myself using my "new" skills and gaining the upper hand with greater ease than with what FSD had taught. I actually started to curtail things a bit as I was worried that I'd be "found out" and held back from my next rank as a result. Finally, I had had enough. I realized that having the skills meant more to me than having the rank, and that the people running the show at FSD were going to make sure that they extracted every penny they could by holding back information and stretching out my training for as long as possible. So I left and have never looked back.

As to the effectiveness of FSD, what if I told you that I know a guy who, after some "real" grappling training, sparred Martin Patenaude and not only took him down but mounted him (i.e. sat on his chest)? The only defence Martin had was to hold on tightly so he wouldn't get punched in the head (and any grappler will tell you that sooner or later those arms are going to get tired of holding on, while all you have to do is wait). Much as they would have you believe it, the sifus aren't invincible, and they don't have much on the ground.

Look, the fact that you guys were willing to come in here and say what you've said (and listen to the crowd here beat on you) tells me that you at least have an open mind. Why not try what Askari has suggested and seek out a school and ask for a friendly sparring match? I'm sure he can recommend a couple of schools. Then you can evaluate for yourself. And don't worry - guys at other clubs don't like going home all broken, so they'll make sure everyone is adequately protected, and they aren't going to try and tear your head off so long as you don't try to tear theirs off. Who "wins" isn't going to matter either, because both of you will come out of it with a better understanding of what the other is doing - then you can decide what's effective and what's not, instead of having to take someone else's word for it. If there's one thing Fang Shen Do is good at, it's making paper dragons. Testing that is a big step, and a scary one. But you can either learn the truth now or later, and later might not be all that convenient if you can't choose you opponent.

[It is Fake]

So, can you help with any proof?

Thank you.

[marcdscott]

"I've seen see Sijo speak plenty of times and I'll tell you this guys is'nt just talk, he would fuck you up."

I ask you how do you know?

Here is the deal I lived with and was best friends with the people JP called the "best" students he had, the "fighters", etc. Now this was in the late eighties and early nineties, and you know what I believed the hype about JP my friends said, why, because I was a naive child.

The students all had stories about just what a badass JP was/is, but you know what walk into any karate school and students there have the same stories, about how badass their sensei is.

I left Ottawa in my early twenties, I literally trained around the world, and met some of the most amazing martial artists one could hope to meet, and what I say in everyone of them was the exact opposite of what I had seen every time I had been exposed to JP. Patenaudes uses bullying and fear to cower students into submissiveness. Most of his students have never experienced anything outside of the WCD/FSD world, or they have come from even less effective systems.

And as for the 20 schools being a sign of just how good the training is, does that means the tens of thousands of McDonalds serve the best food based on the number of franchises?

[Askari]

Hey, why dont you ask Pat Marcil what kind of gloves he wore for his supposed MMA fight?

[Corvus]

Well Corvus,

Why dont you go and ask your Sifu about the history of his art and the questions posed on this thread and then come back and tell us his take on the matter?

Why not call Sijo or one of the instructors yourself and ask him directly? I'm sure you can find the number easily.

Now some questions for you:

Which club do you train at?

Who is your instructor?

You'll forgive me if I don't blurt out where I train on the world wide web. It adds nothing to this conversation. If you are wondering if I am "legit", you'll just have to take my word on that one.

Have you ever had a private lesson?

Yes

How much do you pay each month?

$156

Did you join the secret midnight "Inner Circle"?

Nope

How often per week do you train?

I train 4 times per week

[Corvus]

So, can you help with any proof?

Thank you.

Sorry, no - this story has circulated in our class as well and until I see proof for myself, I can't confirm or deny it.

[Askari]

Corvus, I am impressed you replied.

Tell us about your private lessons please.

Why dont you go and ask your Sifu about the history of his art and the questions posed on this thread and then come back and tell us his take on the matter?

Why not call Sijo or one of the instructors yourself and ask him directly? I'm sure you can find the number easily.

No the burden of proof is on you. You've told us how nice and open these guys are, how do they react to being questioned by you? Lets see scans of their diplomas online. Instead we have video of phantom elbows and crappy phon saos.

I won't let ego get in the way, nor will I throw any threats your way (immature and retarded...).

So suggesting I let Sijo's call display record my home number wouldnt be constituted as a threat? Promises, Promises.

You'll forgive me if I don't blurt out where I train on the world wide web. It adds nothing to this conversation. If you are wondering if I am "legit", you'll just have to take my word on that one.

Again, you are the guys claiming how badass you are, prove it.

$156 :5eek:

That is more then double the cost of Therien and other legit clubs in town. Meat on a stick man, I could train with Rickson Gracie for that cost (Linked, just in case you hadnt heard about him).

Sorry, no - this story has circulated in our class as well and until I see proof for myself, I can't confirm or deny it.

One time at bandcamp, I heard that this lady killed a guy with her baby finger. I dont have any proof, but I am going to train the deadly baby finger fighting style anyway.

There is no proof because all real MMA puts its results on fcfighter or sherdog!

I'll repost my other comments as you seem to have skipped it:

"We have spoken about BJJ. Now lets talk about Sayoc Kali, these guys have knives and a lot of them grapple. Lets talk about Dog-Brothers, guys who can fight with a weapon and grapple.

Now how do you measure up against real Martial Artists? Have you been to a gathering of the pack for the Dog Brothers?"

[Corvus]

No the burden of proof is on you. You've told us how nice and open these guys are, how do they react to being questioned by you? Lets see scans of their diplomas online. Instead we have video of phantom elbows and crappy phon saos.

Why in the world would I walk into Sijo's office and demand scans of diplomas, etc.? Because you asked me to? This isn't a courtroom. "Burden of proof" is an obligation to prove allegations which are presented in a legal action. I haven't "alleged" anything. I haven't made ANY false claims as to my skill level or Fang Shen Do in general.

So suggesting I let Sijo's call display record my home number wouldnt be constituted as a threat? Promises, Promises.

Is it constituted as a threat? How so? I just said that if you have questions, call and ask the school directly. Who says you have to use your home phone?

Again, you are the guys claiming how badass you are, prove it.

I never once claimed I was a "badass". As I said earlier, I can only speak of my personal experience within the club. I can't speak for the others who have posted here.

That is more then double the cost of Therien and other legit clubs in town. Meat on a stick man, I could train with Rickson Gracie for that cost (Linked, just in case you hadnt heard about him).

I've heard of him. What makes Therien and the other "legit" clubs in Ottawa better than the other? Cost? edit: I got thinking about this after I posted. I'm not trying to disrespect the other clubs in Ottawa and the surrounding area. For example, I've heard only great things about Ronin, and I'm sure it's a fantastic club. The bottom line is - I like Fang Shen Do. I can afford it. I enjoy the training and get along well with my instructors and fellow students. I may choose to train elsewhere in the future, but for now I am happy where I am.

One time at bandcamp, I heard that this lady killed a guy with her baby finger. I dont have any proof, but I am going to train the deadly baby finger fighting style anyway.

Umm...o.k.?

There is no proof because all real MMA puts its results on fcfighter or sherdog!

Which is why I said I can't confirm or deny it.

I'll repost my other comments as you seem to have skipped it:

"We have spoken about BJJ. Now lets talk about Sayoc Kali, these guys have knives and a lot of them grapple. Lets talk about Dog-Brothers, guys who can fight with a weapon and grapple.
Now how do you measure up against real Martial Artists? Have you been to a gathering of the pack for the Dog Brothers?"

How would I measure up? Good question. What is your criteria in comparing one martial artist to the next?
I'm not entirely sure I know what a "pack for the Dog Brothers" is, so I would have to say no on that one.

[red-dragon]

Ironically, there are a couple of former FSD students/instructors who have gone on to align themselves with first and second generation Bruce Lee students, and I wish them all the best. I suppose they wanted something a little closer to the source.

CdnRonin, can you elaborate on this point. Do you know any of these ex-students??

[Askari]

What is your criteria in comparing one martial artist to the next?

Pride FC. Fedor is the best fighter in the world.

I'm not entirely sure I know what a "pack for the Dog Brothers" is, so I would have to say no on that one

Do some research on Martial Arts before claiming how good Fang Shen Do is. If you do not know who the Dog Brothers are, you are completely lacking in knowledge about Martial Arts and have no basis for expertese.

Google is your friend, you will never find a Bullshido thread or a thread anywhere on the internet criticizing the Dog Brothers.