Fang Shen Do

[Askari]

Jamboo, good encounter you had.

[OFF-TOPIC/]Jean-Yves is one of the greatest full contact fighters of all time, his students regularily compete in full-contact kickboxing etc, so he is passing on the legacy. If you didnt get a good workout at his club, that is probably more your problem then his. From their Jiu-Jitsu side, most JJ in Canada can trace itself back to George Sylvain and Jean Therien, this includes all of the BJJ clubs - because Therien along with Phil Gelena brought the BJJ instructors to Canada. First bringing Wagnney Fabiano and giving him a forum to spread BJJ.[/OFF-TOPIC]

Back to the stupid pictures of Fang Shen Do that I posted above. Wonder if they thought when they let corel have these that the pictures would ever become common fodder for the masses in this fashion?

Anyone else have pics of disaster for these guys?
:needpics:

[JohnnyCache]

I love this site. Bullshido really does expose the BS in martial arts.

The only experience I've had with Fang Shen Do was meeting Sifu Scott Hill and another Sifu at the Labatt 24-Hour Relay in Nepean in 2004. They came to give a little bit of a demo on Fang Shen Do. They showed some wrist locks and a few strikes I think.

They both seemed like really nice guys. I told them I don't have much money cause I'm going to university, and that I had all ready paid a fair bit of money to Therien Jiu-Jitsu. The sifu who was with Scott Hill immediately said "Doesn't it bother you that they sell donuts in their dojos?" I told him I had never seen donuts being sold at the Therien schools I went to, but that I thought Therien was garbage, I didn't learn a thing (Therien claims that it is good for self-defence), and some classes I didn't even break a sweat (Therien boasts that their class is great for fitness). He said that the schools are more geared towards kids and getting money from families, rather than training martial arts to people. It legitimized them, in my eyes, that they too could recognize bullshido.

So from my experience, both sifus seemed like really nice guys who were no nonsense about martial arts training, which I thought was awesome.

Scott Hill told me to try the free month of training they offer. I thought about it, being that their Kanata location is about a 2 minute drive from me! But I looked it up online and saw people talking somewhere about how it is a cult, and costs $150/month or more with lots of different fees. And starting training in a new art a month before I go away again for school would be silly.

But if all these stories about dojo raids, pyramid schemes, and messed up weekend retreats are true, then......wow. It sounds like Fang Shen Do really is a cult, and that Patenaude guy has people brainwashed. I just hope he doesn't do anything besides take people's money...

If you're right there, take a couple free lessons and tell us about them! Good opportunity for us to give them a fair shake...just don't drink any koolaid or sign anything...

[Askari]

Jamboo,
Why do you call a guy you only met once a "Sifu"? That is usually only a habit that students develop when talking about their own teachers.

Meeting him seems to have really impressed you. Tell us more about the demo, do you have any pics or video?

[It is Fake]

Jamboo,
Why do you call a guy you only met once a "Sifu"? That is usually only a habit that students develop when talking about their own teachers.?

No, this is common with many people in TMA, it is a sign of cross MA respect. It isn't a correct usage. We, non-native speakers have added more meaning to Sifu.

Orientophilles love this word, even your semi disdain shows how ingrained the meaning has become. I asked my Mandarin Chinese Teacher this and she laughed.

Sifu is closer to mister/teacher than an honorific title.

[jamboo]

"I told him I had never seen donuts being sold at the
Therien schools I went to, but that I thought Therien was garbage, I didn't
learn a thing (Therien claims that it is good for self-defence), and some
classes I didn't even break a sweat (Therien boasts that their class is great
for fitness)."

As someone who's been on the opposite side of the ring from more than one Jean
Yves student I can tell you first hand that Therien's is a great school. John
and Jean-Yves have produced some of the best people I've ever fought and scene
fight. Along with that a number of Therien students are currently members of
top ranked BJJ teams in Canada.

How long where you there?

TKD

I was there for just over two months. I never tried their kickboxing program, I
just signed up for the jiu-jitsu (when I realized the jiu-jitsu was BS, I asked
if I could just do the kickboxing instead...they said no). Every class was
basically the same: shadow boxing as they told us what strikes to use, then
drills for the rest of class (a guy throws a slow-motion punch, you grab him
and hip throw him (o goshi) then go right into an armbar).
One class I went to, all we did was wiper blocks and arm punches from the horse
stance. That was the last class I ever went to.

I'm sure they have some talented students and probably teach well, especially if
they have BJJ connections, but the stuff they were teaching when I was there
would never work. When someone punches you, you can't just grab their arm and
o goshi them. Wiper blocks are ridiculous. I can't even remember the other
techniques they tried to teach because they had so many steps, and no one
thinks things out that much when they are in a fight or being mugged.
Training techniques like this for years before you can start any kind of
sparring is just ridiculous to me. They watered down the training so that they get more money to teach less. I learned more in the first 10 minutes of my first muay thai class and in 1 judo class than I learned in 2 months at Therien.

I have talked to atleast half a dozen people online and in person who have had very similar experiences. Unfortunately for me, joining Therien's jiu-jitsu program turned out to be a very expensive mistake! But that's my own stupidity I guess.


I wasn't trying to change the subject by bringing that up, I was just saying that the Fang Shen Do dudes seemed to frown upon Therien too (though they were respetful about it), before I even brought up my experience with them. This, plus "come try a free month of training with us" made them seem pretty legit to me, though from reading this thread, it seems that the free month is how they brainwash people into taking out a bank loan to buy Patenaude a new helicopter.

Jamboo,
Why do you call a guy you only met once a "Sifu"? That is usually only a habit
that students develop when talking about their own teachers.

Meeting him seems to have really impressed you. Tell us more about the demo, do
you have any pics or video?

Sorry, I don't have any pics or video. It wasn't a formal demo or anything, just them showing a couple things to whoever wanted to learn.
I can't judge their art on that, but that what they taught seemed to be effective, as my girlfriend at the time was at that little demo too and used a couple moves on me when we wrestled sometimes :icon_surp

Since then, I've gone back to judo, and started BJJ and muay thai!

As for calling them sifu, I was just calling them by rank in their art. Being a judoka, I'm just used to calling a teacher a sensei, so I naturally called them by their titles. I don't know much about kung fu or anything, as I've never done it, so I just assumed it was normal to call them a sifu. Now I feel like I'm part of the cult or something :(

[JohnnyCache]

Try the school for yourself, then tell us what you discover. It's the best option no matter what.

[Haru_the_larger]

Wow. Go away for a little while and the thread explodes again.

The FSD people look on all other schools with disdain, not just Therien. I have never heard them refer specifically to any other school, but they will talk in generalities about other systems and how bad they are or how much better FSD is than them.

The DVDs were initially about $100 EACH. The DVDs are of different lengths. I don't believe it is fair to call them training videos. At best, they are review videos. If you had never trained in FSD they would mostly be useless. If you have trained some of them are useful in terms of review for tests. Overall I feel that I did not get value for money when I bought some of the DVDs.

A note about the black belt club that I thought might add to the thread: The BBC used to be "special". It used to be that members were taught things not normally taught in class OR that members were taught things at an accelerated rate (learning skills taught at a higher level). As with so many other things in FSD, BBC has become watered down. It has become just another class during the week. In the case of the BBCs held in Casselman, it is just another class that takes an extra hour and a half out of your day on top of class time because it is so far away. I've found that many of the sifus and head assistants act a little odd at the BBC, especially out in Casselman. It seems like they are almost embarassed to speak with students, and during chi sao rotations they rarely work with anyone other than another sifu. There are occassions when I was able to work one on one with a sifu, but most of the time they seem to get very impatient if forced to do chi sao with a lower ranked individual. I know this is not the experience that everyone has, but it is something that I noticed. I have no idea what this inner circle thing is. It sounds to me like it is the new BBC. Eventually they will have an inner inner circle club, or a platinum inner circle club. It would appear that it is the FSD version of the Corner Gas points card.

It makes me sad to see the inflammatory and explosive comments made by the FSD people (with the exception of Sifu Scott Hill). I keep hoping that one of the FSD officials will come on here and properly answer the many reasonable questions that have been asked, instead of threatening, boasting, and mocking.

[Askari]

Johnny, based on the information brought forward in this and the other threads, I'm not crazy about recommending someone go and try out the FSD. Especially someone who is already training Judo and BJJ.

Jamboo, now I understand your post better. You might want to note on the other thread the Fang Shen Do opinion of Judo. They placed it around the same level they refered to Therien when talking to you.

[Askari]

Videos

Yes I have been scouring the remote corners of the internet. I have no life. But I have found some Fang Shen Do videos. Almost worth a whole other thread.

Video One
Video Two
Video Three
Video Four

Well in these videos we have Jacques Patenaude explain that his system teaches grappling and then we have examples of what Fang Shen Do thinks is grappling.

And we now have an official seal of approval:

[PeterPantsless]

1.) Where on earth did you find those?

2.) Got any more? Those are gold.

[PeterPantsless]

"Canadian grappling"


Wow. Take that, Brazil! :eusa_hand

[TKD Black Belt]

Sadly I can't claim credit for this (credit goes to one of those questionable Therien fighters) but I'm going on record with this:

THAT WAS SOME SERIOUS FANG SHEN DON'T In my opinion!

TKD

PS - Jamboo I still have difficulty believing what you've said as I can speak from first had experience as to the level of Jiu Jitsu and kick boxing from that club. As far as what you describe, it doesn't seem that far off of where most people start in BJJ, block the big dumb punch, put bad guy on ground, arm bar bad guy. Oh well, looks like you're into the Judo now so no harm no foul.

[Askari]

Sadly, I cant take credit for those videos, I am doing a lot of obsessive searches through obscure websites, and people PM/email me with leads too. So things like the clip art and these videos are surfacing.

I know what I think of those clips, but am looking forward to other people's opinions too. Maybe even an explanation from a Fang Shen Do insider?

[Stringfellow]

Ooh - those are clips from the grappling DVD (I know because I spent $50 to get it back in my kool-aid days). They're a great demonstration of my earlier point - those takedowns are what Fang Shen Do considers "grappling". As you can see, it bears absolutely no resemblance to what the rest of the MA community knows it to be. Remember that when some FSD fanboi tells you that they do grappling.

The whole video is just like that, too. Like Haru said, just one technique done after another - no explanation, no different angles, no details on what you're doing. When I first watched it, I felt like that kid at Christmas who thinks he's unwrapping that super-deluxe Optimus Prime transformer but instead discovers a pair of wool socks (play that mental movie back in your mind while you watch these). Of course, convinced it was a one-off, I was dumb enough to buy the Phon Sao DVD as well. Exact same thing. In fact, there's one on there that's so screwed up I can't even figure out what you're supposed to do. If I can find it maybe I'll rip it and post it. I mean it is bad.

[TKD Black Belt]

Okay, here is my break down/critique. Should a current or past student of Fang Shen Do (Or Fang Shen Don't as I will no refer to it) want to pass on the rest of the videos to me I would love to post a synopsis of the material presented.

Okay Video one:

Reminiscent of the early master pieces by Renzo. Keep in mind, Renzo didn't speak english at the time. I'm not criticizing Pateneaud for his bad h'englich, but since this country is bilingual wouldn't it have made more sense to speak in a language he's comfortable in and sub title it?

Also, I'm pretty sure the last time I saw someone with the same fanatical stare and hand gestures they where trying to sell me AmWay!

Video two:

"With thee, ah....." (line please, can someone get Sifu the GD line for crying out loud!)

I love when people who look unconfident remind me how confident they are, that helps. I believe you. Can you pass the poo now?

Video three:

Just two things here, um is the 'Phantom Elbow' taught in the first class or do I have to wait for a few midnight sessions and buy some vitamins to learn that?

Also, um isn't learning how to grapple without learning break falls kind of like learning how to drive a car without a break pedal?

Video four:

You know I love schools that tell me what great strikers they are and how even though they train to grapple they'd rather keep the fight standing. He Sifu Golden Boy, do all your fighter's fight with their hands down!!!

You know what, I'm gonna leave the take down alone as anyone with the mental ability of a gerbil can see that that technique won't work. Although I think Fedor does something similar to that, except when he does it it looks like a double leg!

Also, anyone notice that this technique only works when your attacker stops moving after you make initial contact?

I'd say this is a case of the blind leading the blind (due to the horrible outfits, can we get Queer Eye for the Kung Fu Guy in here?) but it actually looks like the Dumb leading the dumber!

TKD