Fang Shen Do

[Jaric]

Whats with these idiot assholes who say they are doing FSD just for good exercise? You know people you can go to a gym and not pay $500 a month for time. I pay $40 a month and can go seven days a week 12 hours a day. Me smart. You not.

[It is Fake]

It is a typical for McDojo's crossing into Bullshido.

Things like:

You are learning how to fight while staying in shape.

Can you defend youselves with weights?

Weightlifting doesn't teach you manners or Philoshpy.

You will be faster than a weight lifter.

You will not be a roid head.

I can go on forever. See, they use the Image of Arnold as a catlyst. Most people don't want to look like that in real life. People tend to forget the average gym will make you look like a fit person.

[Haru_the_larger]

It is true that Scott came on and said HE fought in an MMA event. I have also seen the posters. I saw his face the day after. I have no doubt that he fought. His saying that, however, is not the same as saying that FSD is an MMA school.

As for jaric's comments, you may consider yourself smart. That is fine. I hate gym's. I hate musclehead posers and primped up girls who go to socialize instead of work out. I have belonged to two gyms in the past that had similar problems with respect to cost as FSD. Initiation fees, hidden costs, etc. never made the gym what it was supposed to be. I'm not sure why you choose to characterize me as an asshole simply because I am looking for something beyond what a gym can offer me. Is the cost the issue here? If I went to another school in town, another MA such as BJJ for my workout, would that make me an asshole as well? Just curious.

My costs to this point are comparable to yours. Keep your eyes on the prize and your words focused on the issue here. Personal attacks really do nothing to advance the discussion.

[n00b]

Or, it could have been because his friends trained there and he liked the physical results. It's always tempting to see something work and go for it. I've never joined a gym, but lots of people have had bad experiences in those as well, it's practically a cliche nowadays.

Anyone know how much having the equivalent of the instructors would cost in a gym? Is is still 40/month, or does the price go up somewhat?

[marcdscott]

I would ask myself why I would want to be part of a school which values money over students, which professes to be about personal growth and humility but relies on violence and bullying to get students in line.

[Slug]

Haru

Try the Muay Thai Academy in Ottawa under Bob Carver or Ronin MA.

Carver is actually under Dan Inosanto and has been for years.
Not sure if they have a Bjj program like Ronin though.

Im sure you will get a good workout and learn to fight without the 'secret society' fee.

Slug

[Haru_the_larger]

The cost of a gym usually does not include a personal trainer or instructor. Price and availability vary from gym to gym. One of the gyms I belonged to had no access to trainers or instructors of any type. The second gym had personal trainers at about $75 a session, with sessions usually lasting about an hour. You had to purchase a minimum number of sessions. The second gym also had a boxing section (boxing for fitness) that cost some ridiculous amount of money. The monthly gym fee usually includes access to the facilities only, and in some gyms, things like pool access cost extra.

None of this is to say the FSD is reasonably priced. It isn't. I agree that Jaric maybe gets what he/she wants from his/her $40 a month gym. I, however, do not enjoy a gym environment. I did not enjoy it in high school. I did not enjoy it in university. I do not enjoy it now. I needed something more. I saw how FSD benefitted friends of mine so I joined.

In addition, at the time it did not appear at the time that they valued money over their students. I believe it has been mentioned before that there used to be a real "family" feel to the school. I still see it from time to time. But most of the observations that have been made by FSD students are based from experience, not from initial impressions. It was well over a year into the system before I started seeing the things discussed here. I see similar realizations from other people at about the same time (a year or so) into their time at the school. I would hope, as stringfellow mentioned, that people will do some research and see comments about FSD before dropping loads of coin. The school has evolved into something other than what it was when I started. I do not regret starting in FSD, nor do I regret my decision to stay in FSD to this point. As long as I see benefits for myself, I will stay. When I no longer see benefits, I will leave. This is my decision for myself based on what I know. I no longer suggest to other people that they should try out the system, however, because of what it has become. I am surprised that Sifu Stephane has said that there are many new students joining BECAUSE of this thread. I would think, if anything, that it would warn students off.

Stringfellow mentioned that he saw hope for the system. I agree. I think there are many positive things in the system and at the school. I think there are some quality instructors and students. But there are problems that need to be addressed.

[PeterPantsless]

I had a HUGE problem with the mandatory training camp. The whole idea of spending a weekend doing military like excersises, never sat very well with me at all. I understand that some members enjoy that type of atmosphere, but to make it manditory seems ridiculous to me. I also think it is one of the biggest red flags, when talking about cult like tendencies.

I'm wondering what other students, past and present, think of the training camp.

[n00b]

Agreed. I do not like mandatory seminars. I did have fun at the training camp though.

[Jaric]

The fact that you get more out of FSD then a gym makes you close to being insane. My gym is flat 40 a month. No strings attached. Broken down into 20 dollar fees every two weeks. If I want time with a trainer, they charge you based on the trainers exp and skill. If you want a super trainer that can also do diet knock your fuckin socks off. Sure they may charge 50 an hour, but its a professional phys trainer that only professional athletes need. Since thats about 1% of the ppl on bullshido we dont have to worry about that. Norm cost is around 40 an hour. For the price you poor buggers pay at FSD you could get ten hours a month of trainer time, pls your normal 24/7 gym time. You would be in the best shape of your life in no time. On the other hand you pay to smell dog shit. Smart. Real smart. Oh and the whole only muscle heads train in gyms and im intimidated by that is bullshit. Most people at a gym are women, not men. Get you head outta your ass. Its not the seventies anymore assholes.

[lubomir]

training camp

I can't prove anything on a forum like this. Ask anyone you know who was there, some of them will admit that they washed feet and sniffed dog shit. Scott Hill was there, and most of the other Sifus: Steph (How yer doin??), Serge, Pat, Stephane, Silvain (Puppets - rise!!), Martin. After JP announced that he was gonna do a little experiment about perception, Martin went outside (this was in the BARN on Friday night) and brought in a bucket. It was passed around, I remember STephane P. taking a good whiff and putting on a face as if he had smelled something very delicious. The only person who didn't hold back reacting was Christine Patenaude, who let out an expression of disgust or so. Anybody who denies this is not saying the truth. There were about 80 people in the barn.
However, I don't really care about that stuff. It only showed to me that JP is dabbling in stuff that is beyond his intellectual reach. The feetwashing could make sense in a different context: personal growth seminar or so. It didn't work here because he didn't know what to do with it. By the way: he said, he won't do the shit-sniffing ever again.
Otherwise, I thought the training camp was great. But: making it mandatory (at 500 dollars plus tax!!) is a money grab. If this cost 250 bucks or so, I might have considered doing it again.

Is there hope for FSD? Yes, if the sifus start a palace revolt and retire the big boss.
And then: adjust prices to market levels, get rid of the cultish stuff and: show respect for other martial arts. You are just one little part of a long history. And this history sure does not peak in Casselman, Ontario, with some Franco-Ontarian grandmaster.

[GreenHornet]

Haru: All I can tell you is that when I switched to my kickboxing/Bjj/MMA school I did not lose the family/friendly atmosphere, nor the workout. In fact the FSD workout is not that spectacular... got try a muay thai routine and we'll tlak about it :)

[Simon McNeil]

My old school in Canada had a contract.

Although it did include a term I never once saw anyone who quit before the end of it pursued over one brass cent. The main reason for the contract was the:

"If I get hurt in the course of my training I won't sue you"

Clause.

While at NBDMA I didn't see many injuries but I did see a few (including a broken nose) and experienced a couple (I seriously shredded my left pec up near it's connection with the arm during a ground session when I was going for the RNC, messed it up and the guy I was fighting spun and landed elbow first on my chest :new_Eyecr) so I can understand why Master Chau might want that in there.

Thing is that plenty of newbs came through our doors and left again in short order when they realized that our school was a lot of hard work and NOT just dancing around in silk PJs. :karated:

[n00b]

Lubomir: I'm just speechless at that story. SO glad I missed that. I'm still gonna pursue independent verification for my own sake, but just *reading* about it grossed me out.

Jaric: You're not being enough of a dick, can you step it up, please? Meanwhile you're responding to at least 2 people, possibly 3, about stuff that hasn't happened to each of them. I mean, if the rant makes you feel good, go nuts, but you're really only yelling at the guys who ARE willing to think about things, which is exactly what'll help them least.

[Haru_the_larger]

lubomir: I echo nOOb's comments on this. That is some sick stuff if it did indeed happen. I too will look for some independent confirmation, but I understand your difficulty in confirming it here. I would be interested in some of the other things you saw. My primary issue at training camp is the lack of safety. I think it is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I did have a certain amount of fun there. I thought the training camps were a hell of a workout weekend that really push people to their physical limits. There are positives that can come out of a weekend like that, but as with a number of FSD things, improvements could be made. I did sure get fed well though that is for sure.

jaric: Do you have an infestation of crotchrot that is putting you in such a foul mood? Are you ignoring what people say here or are you simply out to piss people off? I am glad that your gym offers you what YOU need. The point I was trying to make is that a gym does not meet the needs of everyone. I did not say that I was intimidated by muscleheads at the gym, though someone else may have. While your gym may be populated by women, one of mine was almost exclusively men, and the second was 50-50 at best. Your experience is not everyone's experience. Calling the sifu out was ridiculous. Are you completely blind to what is going on here? What are you proving by accepting a challenge that was not even made to you? Part of the enjoyment of following the thread was that it was an academic-type discussion, an exchange of ideas, and a continuing fact-finding mission. Now you want to meet someone at the flagpole after school.

sifu (s): I respect each of you for what you have done for me. Having said that, I would not approach you at a school with any of the concerns raised here. I have seen with my own eyes how some instructors at the school have treated questions such as the ones raised in this forum. I have heard Sijo give his "it costs what it costs" speech. I have heard Sijo tell stories of chasing students out of the school, and of him bloodying students. The words came from HIS lips. I have been pressured by instructors. I have been pressured by Linda. I have been humiliated by instructors. I know students who have left the school because there are no competitions. I know students who have left because of the pressure put on them by instructors, by assistant instructors, and by Linda. I know students who stay away from class for extended periods of time because of this uncomfortable feeling. I will say that I personally have not experienced this pressure from any one of you three. I hope that perhaps you can take a critical look at what people are saying in this forum. Students are feeling intimidated and ripped off. People also see hope for the system, but only if there is change. I am among them. I understand the passion that you feel for the system, as each of you have strong ties to it. Don't let those ties blind you to what is going on around you. I see new students join weekly. However I also see many students leave at the end of their three month term or after a year. I have only ever seen one black sash in class who is not an instructor - why is this? That one black sash, I never saw again. There are so many positives to what you guys do, but the things mentioned by stringfellow and others in this forum work against the positives. Take the opportunity to evaluate what is going on in the system. These views that have been mentioned here are far more common in the schools than you might like to admit. And no, no one is going to walk up and talk to you about it as it has been made clear that questioning sijo or the system is done at your peril. I stay because I have personal goals I would like to reach. Whenever I leave, I will be sad. I used to be very proud to be an FSD student. I feel ashamed now. Does that not tell you anything? I have no desire to recieve rebuke and scorn from instructors. Perhaps that makes me a coward or it means I am not a man of action in your parlance. I think it makes me prudent based on the stories I have heard directly from instructors and assistant instructors as to what has happened to people in the past.

Green Hornet - I appreciate your input. I know people who have trained at the Bob Carver school. I believe at this point that if I were to leave FSD I would end up training at Ronin. I don't know if I would leave FSD to go to another KF school or not. I think when you are in a place with like-minded people it is easy to get along. The family-like environment was an unexpected plus, and I am glad to hear you have experienced it in other venues.

I was accused by someone who read my comments as being to "safe" or middle of the road. That may be the case. The fact of it is that I went into FSD because of the benefits I saw were being reaped by friends of mine. I fully admit that I did little research into MA before I started. Call it an impulse buy. For a while I was a Koolaid drinker. After a while I started seeing chinks in the armour and stopped drinking. I respect many of the instructors, but not all. I don't believe I am alone in saying there are positives in the system. Right now the positives still outweigh the negatives for me so I stay. I can still have fun there. I can still learn there. But as I said from the beginning, I am not a nuthugger. I see what is wrong and quite hope that Sijo and the rest of the leadership of the organization can take an objective look and make some changes to salvage the reputation of FSD.