Fang Shen Do

[Askari]

I have actually used a knee to prevent a shoot.

Yeah I've sprawled out, won the clinch battle, and pumped a knee as he tried to recover too. It happens and its part of fighting.

That's the thing - fighting is really simple. You dont need to memorize a hundred teh deadly techniques and mime them at your mirror for ten years.

[Doctor X]

That's the thing - fighting is really simple. You dont need to memorize a hundred teh deadly techniques and mime them at your mirror for ten years.

Indeed.

It is like playing a musical instrument. One practices a drum rudiment to "internalize it"--motor memory. Phil Collins is not thinking "DOWN-up-tap-tap," he thinks "paraddidle" and "how much will Disney pay for this sappy love song? I hate South Park." So, as you say, the whole point of training is to entrain the motor system so you can execute complex actions with little thought.

Similarly, mastering rudiments is not playing music. You need to sit in with a band. Your "mimes" may internalize somethings, but unless they train realistically . . . *cough* *cough* . . . spar . . . the likelihood of actually applying such moves is nil.

Slips off soapbox. . . .

--J.D.

[DAYoung]

Time for the Sinophile to say: wu-wei.

[Shadow Ragno]

FSD More +++

Shadow Ragno here, once again reading all of your interesting replies. I really do enjoy reading what you all have to say, because I believe that we are lucky enough to be able to express how we truly feel and what we believe in on threads such as these.

For some of you, such as Lightweight, wondered why I was so out of shape when I signed up in FSD when I already have a black belt in Shotokan Karate. Well, the truth is, I lost interest a while back, especially when the school I was training in went out of business and at this point I didn't see the need to continue. PS, the school I trained at cost me $75/month at the time, but now out of business. See the irony in that?

Any how, life became busy, I was no longer a student but now a full time worker with a new mortgage to pay. There was no time for martial arts. But one day, years later, I discovered Fang Shen Do. Went to check them out, and was highly impressed. However, before I found Fang Shen Do, I checked out many different martial arts schools, ranging in different styles from Kyiu Kushin Karate, to Jiu Jiutsu, to White Crane and Shaolin Kung Fu. They were all very impressive, and I am so fond of the many different styles, but I had to choose one. So why FSD, because although they are one of the more costly ones, and there are other schools I've checked which were just as costly, they have been around for many years, and have many successful schools opened all over Ontario and Quebec. My two favorite provinces in Canada. Being a member at one, meant being a member in all. I take advantage of all the schools, visited them all, trained with all the Sifus and Sijo himself, sparred and taken weapons classes in many schools, and I love it. I am sure that this martial art will not go out of business.

Perhaps you may disagree and find that our system is not as effective as we believe it is, but that is your opinion. I personally find that we do learn what it takes to deal with real confrontations on the street. I also believe that we can win tournaments if we were in to the competition thing. However, we rather train in our dojos and prepare for life challenges and not a competition or tournament that supposedly makes you a distinguished martial artist if you win and a loser if you don't.

Let me ask all you ex-FSD students? Why do you feel like FSD has failed you? Where do you find there to be weaknesses. Is it in our closing techniques? Perhaps in our takedowns or escapes? Do you not believe that Phon Saos are a good means of taking down an opponent who may be threatening you or your family? Let's discuss this, rather than bash eachother. What MA styles are you ex-FSD students doing now? What makes it better, is it because it is cheaper? Just curios.....if you wish to reply we can have an interesting discussion about this.

Any how ladies and gents, good training to you all. Whatever style you do, believe in it, and enjoy it, like I do.

Shadow Ragno

[GreenHornet]

isn't that the non-action term in taoist philosophy?

[DAYoung]

Yep. It is both a cosmological principle and a principle of activity. It is often associated with thoughtless and seemingly purposeless action, effortless activity, and the like.

[GreenHornet]

shadow r.: the effectiveness (or its absence) of fsd is not a matter of opinion but of facts. We have no facts that demonstrate the positive value of the fsd system in a real confrontation.

Competition are not only about winning, but also about stress testing your MA style. even if you don't go home with a gold medal, the fact that you were willing to fight to prove your point will give you respect from most of us. However if a bunch of fsd students were able to show good results in a tournament it would be rather positive for the image of the school.

About trapping hands (phon sao): did you ever wondered why even the sifus never used it in sparring, not even against begginers? the answer is simple, in a real fight trapping hands don't work (at least not in the way they are shown in the fsd classes). All the drills: takedowns, phon sao, escapes, etc. are dead patterns. Go on google video and make a search on matt thorton, it will clear some things up about what most of us think about alive vs dead training.

[Slug]

Let me ask all you ex-FSD students? Why do you feel like FSD has failed you? Where do you find there to be weaknesses. Is it in our closing techniques? Perhaps in our takedowns or escapes? Do you not believe that Phon Saos are a good means of taking down an opponent who may be threatening you or your family? Let's discuss this, rather than bash eachother. What MA styles are you ex-FSD students doing now? What makes it better, is it because it is cheaper? Just curios.....if you wish to reply we can have an interesting discussion about this.

Any how ladies and gents, good training to you all. Whatever style you do, believe in it, and enjoy it, like I do.

Shadow Ragno

Not an ex FSD but from what I read and seen on video and meeting an ex black belt years ago whne it was Wing Chun Do

You never sparred a person from Striaght Blast Gym or someone from the Gracie clan/lineage have you? Not to sound like Im bashing you but come back when you sparred with even a blue belt in BJJ.

Phon Sao my ass, if you blow it you are your going into a clinch trust me.

People are brainwashed into the doctrine that 'closing' is the be all to end all . FSD learned its base in the late 1970s and has failed to progress past its time chosing to perfect techinques that were novel back then and not the reality of what Mixed Martial Art Competetions like the UFC demonstarted. They have yet to test their stuff in the ring or if they have at all, they have not on a constant bases.

They use the excuse that they are too deadly for competition.

Closing can be jammed and you have one chance to pull it off...FSD seems not to prepare you for the possibility of technique failure. The straight blast can be countered several different ways. I see no mount work or guard work in their 'Canadian Grappling' its just some bad Chi-Na and traditional Jui Jitsu

FSD may be okay for sucker punching and faking out a few bums...but from what I seen in the promos a skilled fighters is going to make them their bitch.

Once again forget traditional Martial arts...go try sparring some one from a good MMA school THEN let us know what you think.

If he was any type of a master he would seekout and prefect his art like Guro Dan Inosanto did with Chai and the Machados and Erik Paulson rather them claim backwoods superiority.

Guro Dan = a true gentleman never calls himself a master and is always learning
Dan is one example of many. His students (not family) acknowledge him as a master becuase he earned respect, not bullied it or bullshitted it.

This FSD clan is so much into believeing their own PR they lost sense of reality.

Hell, they dont even have a presence in Cali and their name is a joke in some circles, for example ask Pendekar Paul de Thouars.

Now THATS not good

Do yourself a favor...put down the Kool Aid and go visit a good local MMA school.

If your in Ottawa go see Bob Carver or Ronin...

Slug


PS: do you ever get seminars from other MA people at your school? probably not. all Patenaude all the time...24/7 Why do they not have ANY affilitaions? with BJJ or Muay Thai..or anything else? What are they hiding or avoiding by their isolation?

[Askari]

Wu-Wei:

Wouldnt it be more the concept of "Action through Inaction"? A sort of seemless connection to reality that allows you to transend the minor distractions of the world in order to control your awareness.

[Askari]

I just found the following posted over on the articles thread:

I am a current Fang Shen Do practioner, and i think your entitled to your opinion about the school, but one thing that you got way wrong is the grappling thing... i have grappling classes every saturday. a class just for grappling, and we quite often do grappling drills in our regular classes... Fang Shen Do IS a mixed martial art, it includes every range of fighting:physcological, kicking, striking, trapping, grappling and of course weapons, so to say otherwise is untrue. ive done tae kwon do for 10 years, and i joined Fang Shen Do about 6 months ago, and im the best martial artist ive ever been, im in the best shape of my life and im comfortable in any fighting situation, so you can say whatever you want about Fang Shen Do and it being *cult-like* but really its just a great martial art and any1 reading that huge article should not judge it by that one persons experience because every1 that i know who has joined has been bettered by it, whether physically, mentally or both.

Thoughts from the ex-FSD'ers here? What does FSD think is grappling? I have now seen their grappling video, but am very interested in first hand accounts.

[DAYoung]

Wu-Wei:

Wouldnt it be more the concept of "Action through Inaction"? A sort of seemless connection to reality that allows you to transend the minor distractions of the world in order to control your awareness.

As I understand it, the 'connection to reality' (i.e. living the Tao, being the Tao) is what's supposed to allow the sense of thoughtless, effortless action. I think there is a difference between this and overcoming of distractions, though the latter ultimately becomes part of the forner. If we think of the Japanese martial arts, kime is associated with focus and the overcoming of what is extraneous, while mushin is the broader experience of mindless action. The commonality to both is a lack of conscious effort; a sense of somehow being at one with what is 'natural'.

[Askari]

Hi DAY,

OK, lets see if I am getting this. I see it as a continous connection to reality, a philosophy that permeates all of you actions, be it driving your car or walking the dog. How am I doing?

and I love it. I am sure that this martial art will not go out of business.

I have to address this because it implies malicious intent on the part of posters here. Which is an entirely false accusation.

[Engage soap-box]

This brings me to my biggest concern about Fang Shen Do - and one that a few posters have noted already. After reading the posts by their Sifus and sockpuppets, after viewing the videos, after sparring with some of their people - I believe that there is a concern for more then just those of us that read this thread. A Martial Art that is this deficient is dangerous for the people who take it - because they are going to get hurt.

Imagine, if you will, someone you care about needs to train in Martial Arts for self-protection. For whatever reason in their life they need this training. Imagine this same person for whatever reason stumbles upon FSD for training. After 6 months they think they can defend themselves and are promptly eaten like a cheeseburger by the very thing that required them to begin training in the first place.

It was pointed out to me recently in a PM that we write on this board for those that read it and do not post, as well as working with each other while dealing with the trolls and sock-puppets. This comment strikes me as very true - I am posting my developing criticism of Fang Shen Do for those people who are reading this and not posting - as well as for those actively engaged in the discussion. I believe that they all need to be fully informed.

I started this thread in order to answer some basic questions that had arisen from talking to some friends who had trained in FSD. I think my questions have been answered.

[Dis-engage Soap-Box]

[Stringfellow]

Thoughts from the ex-FSD'ers here? What does FSD think is grappling? I have now seen their grappling video, but am very interested in first hand accounts.

FSD's idea of grappling includes the so-called "takedowns" (there are 12) and the "wrist escapes" (there are 6). None of these involve being on the ground. I think that's a big source of confusion for FSD practitioners who come here without and BJJ or similar exposure - we're using the same word, but we mean different things. As far as I've seen, there is nothing in the "official" curriculum nor has there ever been anything on any test that I've taken that involves groundwork as anyone familiar with BJJ would understand it.

Considering this, I can see how easily someone who practices FSD could come on here, see some discussion concerning the lack of grappling in FSD, and immediately respond with "we do so do grappling". We're talking apples and oranges.

[Shadow Ragno]

FSD vs BJJ (WHY? DIFFERENT STYLES)

Hey Slug, thanks for replying. I agree that BJJ is one of the deadliest and accomplished forms of martial arts out there. I've actually attened a class in downtown Montreal called the Cultural Martial Arts Academy and was highly impressed. Like I said, most martial arts impress me. But if grappling and knee locks and elbow brakes are not my thing, then nor is this art. We all know that an accomplished BJJ martial artist can defeat almost anyone. We say the Gracies do it in the UFC and other mental martial arts competitions out there, all the time. But many of us don't look for the school that will send us out in to competition to win fights in a rink for all to see. When I was training in Karate, I was involved in competitions because I was sort of force fed it by my sensei. I won many, lost some, and had no regrets. But FSD trains us to deal with life challenges and not have to get involved with the comps. If some punk were to invade my bubble on the streets or wherever, because of my intense conditioning, my speed and FSD fighting techniques, I know I am going to take that guy down before he even has a chance. In fact, it happened just last week. And no, he wasn't drunk or high, just a bully who messed with the wrong guy and highly regretted since I knocked him out so fast and left him bruised.

I understand what you mean by competing to prove your styles credibility. Many bad asses from different styles have showed their stuff in these competitions, and will continue to do so. Do we all need to prove that what we do in our styles is the most effective? Perhaps, but it still stands that my training is making me a better person, and a better fighter. I am not looking for a fight, but maybe I will take your advice and go visit some MAA schools and talk to their instructors about my style, and how it compares with theirs. Maybe I can organize a friendly bout between some FSD students and other MAA students within the same level. I'll let you all know how that goes.......first some research is required.

Gotta go, have a scheduled class in 1/2 hour. Shadow R.

[BoardHitBack]

Hey Slug, thanks for replying. I agree that BJJ is one of the deadliest and accomplished forms of martial arts out there.

By itself, this is not in fact the case.

Like I said, most martial arts impress me.

That would be your problem.

But if grappling and knee locks and elbow brakes are not my thing, then nor is this art. We all know that an accomplished BJJ martial artist can defeat almost anyone. We say the Gracies do it in the UFC and other mental martial arts competitions out there, all the time.

You clearly didn't notice when the world moved on.

But many of us don't look for the school that will send us out in to competition to win fights in a rink for all to see. When I was training in Karate, I was involved in competitions because I was sort of force fed it by my sensei. I won many, lost some, and had no regrets. But FSD trains us to deal with life challenges and not have to get involved with the comps.

FSD teaches poor techniques and inadequate defenses against an attacker. Life challenges my ass. You have bought into some serious marketing bollox.

If some punk were to invade my bubble on the streets or wherever, because of my intense conditioning, my speed and FSD fighting techniques, I know I am going to take that guy down before he even has a chance.

Your bubble? What paranoid delusion are you working under? BTW 45 min classes don't condition you intensively. I'm pretty sure that a Muay Thai fighter is in better shape than you.

In fact, it happened just last week. And no, he wasn't drunk or high, just a bully who messed with the wrong guy and highly regretted since I knocked him out so fast and left him bruised.

Surprisingly enough, your vague story is not one I believe.

I understand what you mean by competing to prove your styles credibility. Many bad asses from different styles have showed their stuff in these competitions, and will continue to do so. Do we all need to prove that what we do in our styles is the most effective?

Its not that FSD is not the most effective. The problem is it is not.

Perhaps, but it still stands that my training is making me a better person, and a better fighter.

Martial arts training doesn't make you a better person. Suggesting it does disparages people who don't do it- which is pretty arrogant IMO. Your training will only make you a better fighter if the methodology is sound and what you are learning is effective. FSD training doesn't look to be either of those things.

I am not looking for a fight, but maybe I will take your advice and go visit some MAA schools and talk to their instructors about my style, and how it compares with theirs. Maybe I can organize a friendly bout between some FSD students and other MAA students within the same level. I'll let you all know how that goes.......first some research is required.

Video please. Bear in mind that even that will be scrutinised. Your word on the issue is extremely questionable.

Gotta go, have a scheduled class in 1/2 hour. Shadow R.

Uh-huh.