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    Vendetta and JFS, HFY, et al.

    Does a poster having a vendetta change the validity of subject matter presented?

    In some of the threads here in which GhostDog68 posts a case against Hung Fai Yi Wing Chun and Anthony posts a case against JFS USA, one of the items repeatedly brought up in rebuttal is that there is a vendetta being expressed in the post, and therefore, the information contained within the post is somehow not valid.

    I personally think that if the information being presented is valid, it really doesn't matter what the ulterior motive of the person making the posts may be.

    For the purposes of determining the validity of bullshido claims, what might other people's thoughts on the subject be?
    136
    No, it makes no difference.
    10.29%
    14
    No, but they sure could be a lot more polite.
    3.68%
    5
    No, but their posts require a tiny bit more scrutiny.
    7.35%
    10
    No, but their posts require A LOT more scrutiny.
    26.47%
    36
    Maybe, I mean if the poster is really a horse's ass or something.
    8.82%
    12
    Probably. All vendettas are automatically viewed suspicsiously
    18.38%
    25
    Yes, it invalids most everything a poster says.
    2.94%
    4
    All of the above.
    2.21%
    3
    None of the above.
    2.21%
    3
    The Seahawks were robbed. :smile:
    17.65%
    24
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

    #2
    If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

    And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

    Tomas


    Originally posted by Tom Kagan
    Does a poster having a vendetta change the validity of subject matter presented?

    In some of the threads here in which GhostDog68 posts a case against Hung Fai Yi Wing Chun and Anthony posts a case against JFS USA, one of the items repeatedly brought up in rebuttal is that there is a vendetta being expressed in the post, and therefore, the information contained within the post is somehow not valid.

    I personally think that if the information being presented is valid, it really doesn't matter what the ulterior motive of the person making the posts may be.

    For the purposes of determining the validity of bullshido claims, what might other people's thoughts on the subject be?
    Current stage of death: denial

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by drummerboy
      If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

      And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

      Tomas
      I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
      You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by drummerboy
        If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

        And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

        Tomas
        I can see where it undermines the concrete points to those who look at it emotionally, instead of logically.

        A picture says a thousand words. I gave you two galleries, that's like what? 100 to 150,000 words?!
        Originally posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
        "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".

        Comment


          #5
          Yeah, we form vendettas against people on this site if that is the word we are going to use, for being bullshido.

          There is and should be a bias against being bullshido. If you don't like that please leave.
          And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by drummerboy
            If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

            And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

            Tomas

            Yes, but the same "halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar" by a person without the vendetta would be subject to the same validity test. So, you are really arguing for answer ... #2, perhaps?
            Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
            "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

            "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

            My Bullshido fan club threads:
            Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
            Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
            Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
            Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
            Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
            I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
            TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
            ATTN TOM KAGAN
            World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
            Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
            I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
            Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by PirateJon
              I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

              Go here and click the "mailing list" link: http://www.themartialist.com/

              :smile:
              Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
              "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

              "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

              My Bullshido fan club threads:
              Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
              Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
              Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
              Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
              Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
              I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
              TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
              ATTN TOM KAGAN
              World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
              Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
              I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
              Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Tom Kagan
                Yes, but the same "halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar" by a person without the vendetta would be subject to the same validity test. So, you are really arguing for answer ... #2, perhaps?
                Yes. I misread the option.
                #4

                Tomas
                Current stage of death: denial

                Comment


                  #9
                  I too say #4. It is the responsibility of the party making the claim to provide solid evidence. Once done, the argument should stand for itself. At this point, nothing invalidates an argument other than countering evidence. A good argument can be made for all the wrong reasons. The "wrong reasons" just make the argument easier to justify ignoring for people who for whatever reason, don't HAVE to know the truth of the matter.

                  EDIT: I LOVE the steelers, but the seahawks were robbed...
                  Last edited by xingyifa; 2/09/2006 5:37pm, .

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Speaking of JFS, what happened? The last I saw someone was going to open a thread and JFS was going to expain the pictures from the seminar but I never saw it. Keep in mind that I don't have access to the BBC.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by greese1
                      Yeah, we form vendettas against people on this site if that is the word we are going to use, for being bullshido.

                      There is and should be a bias against being bullshido. If you don't like that please leave.
                      Anthony's case could have gotten off to a better start if he had all the evidence before starting the flamewar of 2006.But the only thing Anthony can be blamed for NOW is that he should try ,in the future,to think things through before teasing everyone with information that as far as I know that he was the only that new.
                      Last edited by CanucKyokushin; 2/09/2006 6:21pm, .
                      [img=http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2364/8026700123940loij9.th.jpg]

                      "God damn America" --Muammar al-Gaddafi

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Raynor
                        Photo evidence > Any vendetta on the part of the presenter
                        Time and time again, threads have proven that stills are the worst way to assess what's going on. Do a search for pics associated with the phrase "keep your hands up."

                        This is pretty fucking stupid. It took all this idiocy to just come out with:

                        1) JFS threatened some people.
                        2) JFS falsely claimed to know BJJ.

                        Instead of settling this with one locked post and banning JFS for the threats, we have this lame noise.

                        Everything else about this clusterfuck is inconclusive or irrelevant. Claiming to be a pankraton instructor is irrelevant, because there's no such thing as "real" pankraton anyway. Photo by photo analysis is stupid, because there is no context to be had from any unbiased source.

                        The sad thing is that while I think that admins were within their rights to deal with this business, they handled it in the worst way possible. Instead of presenting the best evidence (claims out of JFS' mouth that don't jibe), you presented pictures in an extremely stupid way. You claimed that publically available web content was "confidential information."

                        Just give this shit to Sam Browning next time.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I have a question.

                          What happens to JFS USA now? It seems that nothing will happen to him in terms of backlash. If Phil Elmore posted here again he'd be ridiculed by everyone obviously, but it seems that wouldn't quite be the case with JFS.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Raynor
                            Incorrect. Look at the photos objectively and not with JFS' cock in your mouth. Is that not grappling? Not only is it grappling, but it contains THE classic grappling defenses.
                            I hear Royce advocates giving your back to larger, stronger guys. Here's T3h Ph0to 3vid3nce:

                            http://bjj.org/susumu/ufc-book/royce-vs-kimo.jpg

                            There are some pictures of some guys either in, partway in or partway out of grappling positions. There's a picture of JFS with his elbow on a guy's back that is either an elbow strike, an elbow to overhook, or something else which, at some point, involved JFS being in that position.

                            And catch wrestling and pankration, all the while disavowing all grappling knowledge on here to wiggle out of his obvious bullshido teachings.
                            No, he said he knew catch wrestling here. Pankraton is a meaningless term when applied to anything outside of Ancient Greek history. It's a brand name.

                            Bullshido *never* did a background check on JFS' exposure to wrestling, despite the fact that he named where and when on a couple of different threads. You were too lazy to get the job done properly, and you reaped the ass-harvest that you sowed.

                            I don't have any interest in defending JFS. I don't even *like* JFS. I appreciated some of his kung fu-related posts, but I don't care for THE BEAST and all the asociated folktale bullshit. I have an interest in useful discussion -- and better yet, smething positive actually coming out of this clusterfuck.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Eh, I forsee nothing happening to anyone from all of this mudslinging. Hell, I couldn't even figure out why there was suddenly an investigation done in the first place. JFS was known for having a "bad boy" internet persona. Sometimes he would inflate things or say things to stir the pot. I suppose, somewhere in there, that threats were made as well.

                              But at this point, everything has just spiraled into a big muck war. We hear that he threatened some people. Okay... all I see are still shot pictures that aren't supposed to be grappling, but are grappling, but aren't grappling. But again, still shots are hardly useful, especially when they are just amateur photos of a session taking place.

                              If someone claims that JFS was teaching something "wrong," I'm merely shrugging my shoulders at this point. JFS didn't run away from such claims, and in the process made no attempt to tell people that he was t3h r34l grapple. If you caught him teaching faulty or useless stuff... okay, we all know about it now. But the way it was presented to all of bullshido.com was both sudden and... well all I could think of was FEUD throughout the whole thing. So, as a reader, I didn't put too much stock in this event. I only wondered why we were so completely focused on it, to the point of creating a 50+ page thread.

                              I don't care about JFS on this matter. I have no desire to go seek him out and meet him in person. I don't talk to him. I wouldn't put it past ANYONE on Bullshido to have taught or espoused "bullshido" at one time or another, even in 2006. If someone one day says, "OMG, Asia taught bullshido!" I wouldn't flip out and lose all faith in this website. We make our arguments, people argue about it for a bit, and so long as each side stays reasonable, we move on.

                              That being said, I don't mind that someone decides to say that JFS is pulling bullshido. But this investigation just wreaked of "I don't like you anymore!" That's fine for you, personally, but it's not good for the rest of us who have NO CLUE what's really going on.

                              Comment

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