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Bullshido on LJ Kung Fu (shock!)

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    Bullshido on LJ Kung Fu (shock!)

    http://www.livejournal.com/community...tml?style=mine

    In the Kung Fu community on Livejournal today someone posted a discussion about the merits of ground fighting (jee, preaching to the fucking choir much?). Anyway, I've attempted to post some of the responses from the Grappling FAQ in the thread and have been met with (shock!) animosity and typical Kung Fu party line.

    So I'm not asking for a forum invasion par se, but it would be nice to not be the only person defending any kind of grappling.

    Here are some choice quotes:

    I can apply many Chi Na techniques from the ground as well as standing - wrist locks, thumb and finger twists and such. Strikes to the eyes or throat that we practice standing work just as well from the guard, etc.
    The other problem with grappling is that it's very dangerous, since your opponent may be carrying a knife and will simply stab you while you're trying to grapple them.
    Many wrestlers also do not understand that in practical fighting there are no rules that say that you can't kick to the knees, groin, or strike to the throat or the eyes. Many techniques in kung fu are specifically designed to disable the opponent with a single blow. Most wrestlers do not have much exposure to stand up fighting and would not be used to seeing these types of attacks.
    I'm of the opinion that BJJ is effective because 99% of the time it's not being applied to someone who has absolutely no compunction about seriously injuring an opponent. I imagine it can be difficult to keep someone in a choke hold or body lock when that person has gotten a hand free, has wriggled around, and starts breaking your fingers.
    I believe that a lot of people would be less vocal about BJJ being "OMG t3h BestEST Ev4R" if they saw one of the Gracies suddenly get drastically injured by someone who saw no problem in shattering both the guy's wrists in order to escape a lock.
    Originally posted by Osiris
    Imagine if track was run like the martial arts community. While the winning teams would just sprint down the field, smoking the competition, you'd have a bunch of losers running around explaining how they can skip down the track just as fast. Never mind that it doesn't fucking work. Oh no, they're too fast for track. They run on the STREET.

    #2
    Same idiotic lines. Its always funny how pple TALK about what they could do but have so much trouble DOING it.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

    Comment


      #3
      Please link them to the Royce Gracie Jason Delucia closed door no rules match. Possibly reference UFC 1 and 2 as well.

      Gringo Grande
      MMA Record vs Llamas 0-1-0
      (The Llama bit my junk but the ref didn't see it).

      Comment


        #4
        Kind of on line with my friend Tatum's "if I kept going, I would've broken [insert limb name here]." But he's my pal, so I forgive him.

        Comment


          #5
          The other problem with grappling is that it's very dangerous, since your opponent may be carrying a knife and will simply stab you while you're trying to grapple them.
          IMO that a valid statement. I joke around the MTD Crew that we can do "Ninpo GroundFighting" that involves me stabbing you with a knife and rolling away. However, there is some truth to that statement. If the other person got a knife on them, the last place you want to be is on the ground looking for a lock or choke.

          Comment


            #6
            Well weapons are dangerous to any martial art, striking or grappling.
            As far as I see, the biggest problem with grappling is multiple opponents. Not a real problem in competitive fighting, but can be a big issue on "t3h str33t".

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by KageKaze
              IMO that a valid statement. I joke around the MTD Crew that we can do "Ninpo GroundFighting" that involves me stabbing you with a knife and rolling away. However, there is some truth to that statement. If the other person got a knife on them, the last place you want to be is on the ground looking for a lock or choke.
              I'm forced to disagree. You're fucked if he's standing and pulls a knife too. "Oh but you could run away" I hear the anti-grapple peons scream. "But you can't do that when there are multiple opponents as a grappler?" I reply.

              Anyway, I would argue that its better to be on the ground with someone who has a knife where you have a better chance of controlling his weapon hand.

              Of course this is all academic unless we have some people throw down with some fake knives either way.
              Originally posted by Osiris
              Imagine if track was run like the martial arts community. While the winning teams would just sprint down the field, smoking the competition, you'd have a bunch of losers running around explaining how they can skip down the track just as fast. Never mind that it doesn't fucking work. Oh no, they're too fast for track. They run on the STREET.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Samfoo
                I'm forced to disagree. You're fucked if he's standing and pulls a knife too. "Oh but you could run away" I hear the anti-grapple peons scream. "But you can't do that when there are multiple opponents as a grappler?" I reply.

                Anyway, I would argue that its better to be on the ground with someone who has a knife where you have a better chance of controlling his weapon hand.

                Of course this is all academic unless we have some people throw down with some fake knives either way.

                Actually we throwdown with wooden knives in Maryland. On the ground to gain a bit of control, however, what you lose is the ability to evade. In knife fighting, evasion is more important.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Kingpooky seems to have taken your side in the debate.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I love a good piece of traditional anti-grappling bullshido. I can't wait to read some gems of idiocy. In reality all of the stuff about multiple opponents, weapons is acutually true it just doesn't invalidate training for the ground. If I'm attacked by a gang of thugs and I get taken/pushed/striked to the ground I'd rather know what to do there than not know.

                    I could just as easily say that standup striking is a waste of time becuase you can be hit from behind if there are multiple attackers and if they pull a knife you will get cut.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Refer to Mr. Gerard "I like munching people and stomping heads" Gordeau.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by KageKaze
                        IMO that a valid statement. I joke around the MTD Crew that we can do "Ninpo GroundFighting" that involves me stabbing you with a knife and rolling away. However, there is some truth to that statement. If the other person got a knife on them, the last place you want to be is on the ground looking for a lock or choke.
                        Benefits of a grappling situation is that you can feel your opponents movement and grappling teaches you how to control the body. Many pple THINK they can handle a knife in a freestanding enviorment but will be in for a surprise if/when it happens. I know from my experience it was GRAPPLING that saved me from further serious injury.
                        ______
                        Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                        RIP SOLDIER

                        Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                        -Gene, GODHAND

                        You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                        The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                        -Daniel Tosh

                        Comment


                          #13
                          "You will find that the only way to fight in such a situation is to keep your opponents at a distance where they cannot attack you simultaneously. If you start grappling with an opponent you immediately open yourself up to the other."

                          In Bujinkan we have grappling techniques that involve holding people and using them as shields against other opponents. It may be an inherently low percentage move based on the disadvantage of the situation, but it is possible to adress multiple opponents and grappling in your training.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by LORD ASIA
                            Benefits of a grappling situation is that you can feel your opponents movement and grappling teaches you how to control the body. Many pple THINK they can handle a knife in a freestanding enviorment but will be in for a surprise if/when it happens. I know from my experience it was GRAPPLING that saved me from further serious injury.

                            Don't get me wrong and think I am anti-grappling, quite the opposite.

                            Saying that, my "against a knife expirence" comes a lot from "knife sparring" at my dojo and at throwdowns. When you get into "grappling range" before disarming the knife (by cutting it out of their hand, or whatever) is a good way to get cut. Will standing and striking not get you cut, no it won't. However, you still have the chance to move and evade.

                            Yesterday, we did some outdoor winter training at my dojo. To finish off the day we did some nice full contact sparring with shaken. So the idea was to use the shaken as a hand weapon and you can throw it if you want. Through expirence and sparring with a few different people, I found that when I got in tight to grapple I would get my arms cut (trying to control the weapon arm), what was working better was standing using slight evasions and counter attacking.

                            This hits a bit close to home because I know this was one of the main reasons I stopped doing BJJ.
                            Last edited by plasma; 1/15/2006 8:47pm, .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Virus
                              "You will find that the only way to fight in such a situation is to keep your opponents at a distance where they cannot attack you simultaneously. If you start grappling with an opponent you immediately open yourself up to the other."

                              In Bujinkan we have grappling techniques that involve holding people and using them as shields against other opponents. It may be an inherently low percentage move based on the disadvantage of the situation, but it is possible to adress multiple opponents and grappling in your training.
                              I know in class I taken on 2~3 pple and I found that I wasn't terribly hard to defend my self while mounted on one guy. Is the came to strike or tackle I was aware enough to counter. (one guy did try to tackle from the behind and didn't think I would notice and went saying over me as I ducked him. It was quite a hilarous thing.) Now I sure if the pple still on their feet had a weapon I'm screwed but could still hold my own. I remember Oleg responding to the "grappling doesn't work against multiple opponents" by picking two guys, not part of his school and trained MArtist, and sparred both of htem and he wrapped one up threw him down and when to what was essentially a knee on belly and then when the other guy tried to strike him he managed to wrap him up too. So that arguement doesn't hold much water since is CAN be done.
                              ______
                              Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                              RIP SOLDIER

                              Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                              -Gene, GODHAND

                              You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                              The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                              -Daniel Tosh

                              Comment

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