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    Anti-BJJ, Stylism and Groundfighting

    For those of you who know me the following will seem fairly redundant, this is for the others. I am not an MMA fanboy, "BJJ r00lz"-er, or anything like that. I am very tired of all the style vs. style nonsense, and even the idea of styles sickens me. (I know, now I sound like Kungfoolss, but you know he's right about that.)

    The question for this thread is the resistance or backlash against BJJ and other variants of submission grappling and groundfighting.

    Wherefore the resistance to groundfighting a la BJJ etc.? Why do you think there are stylistic "options"? Why do you think that simply knowing one technique that *may* work negates the effectivity of groundfighting systems? What's up with all that? To illustrate my problem I have reversed the classic anti-BJJ arguments and enumerated them below. It's extremely rare for one to find a BJJ'er who will make any of the following claims:

    1. BJJ has plenty of standup.
    2. If I were forced to fight standing, I would just use submissions and chokes on my feet. They work equally as well on a standing opponent.
    3. BJJ has the most complete system of anti-weapon techniques, a simple reinterpretation of the ground techniques reveals an incredibly effective disarming arsenal.
    4. Boxing sucks ass. Look at my BJJ standup...*proceeds to box*.
    5. If we were fighting stand-up, I would just block all your punches, therefore stand-up is useless.

    Nevertheless, these are the same arguments that are constantly being thrown at us. I'm on my way to school, so I didn't have time to really compose this. This is not an attempt to precipitate a BJJ r00lz/sux flame war. I'm investigating the pathology of backlash.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

    #2
    A major reason for this has to do with cognitive dissonance (a feeling of discomfort caused by performing an action that is discrepant from one's customary, typically positive self-conception). If you spend 15 years training in a style that solely focuses on stand-up techniques and then one day you are abruptly shown how someone with the proper training can take you down and dominate you, it creates cognitive dissonance. There are two main methods to reduce cognitive dissonance: 1) Change your behavior 2) attempt to justify your behavior. Changing your behavior in this case would entail learning a new art (some kind of grappling system). After someone has invested 15 years into a system, they are going to have a hard time making themselves start over as a beginner, much less admitting that what they have spent alot of their training on for 15 years was a waste of time and money. So, you get the justification of the person's current behavior, thus all of the stuff you hear about grappling being impracticle for "real" fights, etc. Of course some people just swallow their pride, learn some new stuff and incorporate it into what they already know (or in some cases make it part of their new "system").

    You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hindlegs but if you get a group of men together you can create a herd of sheep.

    Comment


      #3
      Good thread, I think the key is to train all ranges. No one style has it all. Forget styles, train ranges and situations, train everything that you find usefull to win. You don't want to go to the ground in a streetfight, but if you do...
      Maybe an armbar won't be practical in a streetfight, but who will have the best chance to gain position to strike, or get back up to their feet?. You just have to be aware of the differences between the ring or mat, and the street. Then you adapt.
      I don't practice BJJ btw.
      Oh yeah, where do people get the idea that MMAers don't fight standing up? True the matches nearly always go to the ground, but surely this means that in a streetfight there is nobody more able to prevent attempts to ground them - experience.
      I don't have a style or system, so I have no issues with pride or being stubborn, I just look at where I've gone wrong and what I can learn to fix it; no excuses, just keep trying to learn.

      Comment


        #4
        #4 sounds like some things said by certain other, 0wned members of this forum

        Comment


          #5
          I really don't understand anyone would consider training only one or the other. The fact is you need both, anyone with realistic training will understand this. Maybe you don't want to fight on the ground, maybe you are not comfortable there, but I was always taught to work hardest on your weak points. Fights are unpredictable, you can't say you won't be taken to the ground, and if pride made you neglect groundfighting then you will be in serious trouble. The same goes for not developing your stand up. Some people are very difficult to take down, wrestlers come to mind on this one. And if you are in a fight with multiple people then you definitly want to stay on your feet and find a way to escape as soon as possible. This stuff is nothing new.

          Comment


            #6
            I started as a Grappler. First fight, used judo. I got messed up, won the fight, but looked like i lost it.

            I went on to Goju, Muay Thai, Aikido, all stand up. I thought I was pretty good.

            Then came along UFC and this little fuck by the name of Royce Gracie, me and my friends were like who is this Royce and Gracie Jiu Jitsu? My friends and I watched him fight after fight win each one with ease. In fact, everytime he fought a new guy, I wanted him to lose. I sat in disbelief when he won against Dan Severn. I was pretty sure Dan was going to slaughter him.

            This went on for the first 3 UFC's. After that, it dawned on me, Gracie Jiu Jitsu has defeated every major style of fighting in the UFC. Why am I not studying it?

            GJJ standup techniques are grapple based in one way or another. They are close in, to minimize being hit. I hate being hit. Being cross trained as a striker is a bonus. But, if I had to choose to learn only one... It would be Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

            My reasoning...

            Against armed attackers... You can have millions of techniques, get into a knife fight and the guy zigs instead of zags, you are dead.

            Against Multiple attackers... Doesn't matter what style you study, 3 guys wanting to hurt will hurt you. You really think watching your Sensei perform Irimi Nage on 3 Uke's is the real thing and will work on the street? WRONG.

            The only good defense is a solid base in RUNNING. Run fast, run hard, and don't stop.

            But if you can't do that, the knowledge you have better be the type that can withstand scrutiny, in ring, the cage, on the streets. Which means stand up and grappling.

            ==================
            A man without a plan, is not a man...

            Nietsche
            Originally posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
            "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".

            Comment


              #7
              good thread...

              Though I'm sure most Bullshidoers recognize the need to be a well rounded fighter, too many people in general don't recognise this or have deluded ideas about "real" fighting.

              In a way I'm glad I was in fights before starting martial arts.

              --
              Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
              The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
              "Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*
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              Comment


                #8
                Agreed, very good thread. Just as the UFC proved to many standup strikers that ground-fighting is necessary, I've met many groundfighters who have been knocked out clean off their feet from a talented striker, thus learning that groundfighting is also not the only way to go.

                To reminisce on some of the first posts... being a skilled fighter or martial artist is ultimately in yourself. As one person made the analogy earlier, relying on one style alone is like trying to hammer a nail with a screwdriver. Your styles are like your tools, and if you don't have the appropriate tools for whichever situation you find yourself in, you're sunk. Anyone who says that their way is the best no matter what, and simply disregards all other methods is deluding themselves.
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                "You all just got fucking owned.";
                "TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."

                - The Wastrel

                Comment


                  #9
                  The only good defense is a solid base in RUNNING. Run fast, run hard, and don't stop.

                  If that is true then Marthon runner will be the only survivor because they can run the fastest and longest :-)



                  Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

                  "I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."
                  I would pick bag work over masturbating, fighting over sex, and KOing someone over having a orgasm!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Are you with me FD? I'm gonna add 10K runs to my GJJ! =o)



                    ==================
                    A man without a plan, is not a man...

                    Nietsche
                    Originally posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
                    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Part of the backlash is the fact that the Gracies themselves are loud, arrogant assholes. You're right, most BJJ stylists wouldn't use any of those arguments. Most. The Gracies, on the other hand, would probably try to claim that A) Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is truly unbeatable, B) Has an excellent anti-weapons program, and C) Completely negates striking. I can say this because THEY ALREADY DID.



                      They don't call it the Nazi PARTY for nothing!
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                      Comment


                        #12
                        LOL I dunno how far 10 K is, but I have ran 8 K on regular base before (if I am correct, it is 5 miles). Yes I agree with you, running does help in a lot of way. But you gotta to be prepare for in case your opponent is much faster than you. I am a really fast runner but I KNOW there are always someone who can run fast enough to catch up and kick my ass. I usually would judge the situtation before run or fight, for example if I got caught by surprise, I would fight back because if I try to run, they will be close enough to grab me. But if I see situtation coming up, I will avoid it quietly (that happened about 99.8% of the time).

                        Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

                        "I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."
                        I would pick bag work over masturbating, fighting over sex, and KOing someone over having a orgasm!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          i really dont understand the problem. how can you judge different systems based on all this situational context. thats ridiculous. it gives you free reign to paint whatever picture you want. then the trolling,flaming, and storytelling begins. i doesnt matter whether if your story is true, or your opinion is well-founded, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with 'scenarios'. thats all mental masturbation. opinions are like a-holes, we all got one.

                          fighting has 2 basic divisions, striking and grappling. there are 3 upright ranges. long, medium,and short. grappling has 3 methods. upright locking, throwing, and groundfighting. striking is applicable in all ranges. grappling is mainly used in short range,but medium as well.

                          no one system can contain all possible methods available in the spectrum of fighting. find 2 or more arts that are complimentary opposites and train them. some systems do cover all ranges in theory, but skill is in specialization. therefore choose simple economical systems.

                          if you dont like a style, dont take it. simple. it is perfectly logical.

                          seems to be a lot of airing of personal dilemmas under the veil of martial arts discussion.

                          people should figure out if it is training that they need, or therapy. maybe after the therapy, they can train.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            You can't really seperate striking and grappling IMHO; clinch? You need both just like you need to be able to fight standing and on the ground.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              KuntaoKid,

                              I don't get it Bro, it seems most of the post I've read in this thread said the same thing you did. Use what you find useful, in so many words.

                              I know I can believe this one true fact about anything, unless I hear or see opposing arguments that change my mind, I will believe that true fact unquestionable. Anyone who puts their thoughts on a message board open themselves to contradiction. It's the flow of information that sets us apart.

                              Sometimes, trollilng, flaming, and story telling play a big role in communicating. =o)



                              ==================
                              A man without a plan, is not a man...

                              Nietsche
                              Originally posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
                              "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".

                              Comment

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