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    How do you deal with...bad students?

    Ok situation:

    Target: Two relatively new beginners at my Wing Chun school.
    Problem: Won't/can't do chi sau motions correctly even when corrected several times in a row by multiple students.

    Do they not listen? Do they find it too hard? (It isn't.)
    What can be done for them?

    I would like some input from other instructors/senior students that have had these troubles.....Thanks.





    --
    Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
    The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
    "Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

    Edited by - pizdoff on April 08 2003 20:11:04
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    #2
    What is Chi Sau motion for? If it is some kind of blocks, hit them (give light warning hit few time) HARD when they don't do it correctly. It will scare them enough into build it as a reflex.

    Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

    "I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."
    I would pick bag work over masturbating, fighting over sex, and KOing someone over having a orgasm!

    Comment


      #3
      Chi Sau motions are meant to build up reflex motions through contact... what my Sifu does is when you're doing your technique correctly is show you exactly WHY it's incorrect. If your elbows are wide, he comes up the middle and whacks you. If you're crossing, he'll trap your arms and whack you. If you're going too high, he'll get you in an arm lock and whack you, etc. Of course none of the hits are meant to do real DAMAGE... but it's done in a way that you get the point, and fast.
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      "You all just got fucking owned.";
      "TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."

      - The Wastrel

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        #4
        If they're such beginners, why are they doing Chi Sau anyway? At my school, true Chi Sau is an intermediate-level exercise. First you go through reactions, then Dan Chi Sau (one handed Chi Sau) and a few other drills that work you up to full Chi Sau. Perhaps you should take your students on a more basic progression... work them up one step at a time.
        Click To Get My Free Training Newsletter... Do It NOW!


        "You all just got fucking owned.";
        "TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."

        - The Wastrel

        Comment


          #5
          Before you judge them too harshly try to think back to when you first started learning chi sau. I recall being frustrated over being corrected alot when I honestly was trying hard and thought my techniques were right on. If, on the other hand, they are just being sloppy and lazy because they don't see the importance of it or don't care, I agree with FD. Sometimes a little physical "reminder" goes a long way toward motivating you.

          Comment


            #6
            what is the problem exactly? are they too tense, or do they have bad coordination? need to know what the issue is before you can correct it. maybe they try to do it 'their way', common attitude of beginners.


            peace.

            Comment


              #7
              what is the problem exactly? are they too tense, or do they have bad coordination? need to know what the issue is before you can correct it. maybe they try to do it 'their way', common attitude of beginners.


              peace.

              Comment


                #8
                the hitting them part is very tempting


                Chi Sau is a......well mostly close sensitivity drill with both arms touching the other person's arms.

                Funny thing is....my bro told me he was told to work with one of the guys, the guy didn't do the chi sau properly and my bro hit him, as he said "Hard, but not my hardest." Apparently that guy made some odd noise and ran away towards the washroom.

                --
                Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
                The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
                "Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*
                Surfing Facebook at work? Spread the good word by adding us on Facebook today! https://www.facebook.com/Bullshido

                https://www.instagram.com/bullshido/

                Comment


                  #9
                  whoa where did all these posts come in?

                  "If they're such beginners, why are they doing Chi Sau anyway? At my school, true Chi Sau is an intermediate-level exercise. First you go through reactions, then Dan Chi Sau (one handed Chi Sau) and a few other drills that work you up to full Chi Sau. Perhaps you should take your students on a more basic progression... work them up one step at a time."
                  good point.....personally i think here the practitioner is at fault

                  "Before you judge them too harshly try to think back to when you first started learning chi sau"
                  well the BIG difference is that i actually took the corrections to heart, whereas these guys still don't do any better after numerous corrections

                  "what is the problem exactly? "
                  ok let me try.....the turn the turning hand but it never goes up or down, just quick turning with out the elbow moving vertically.....

                  --
                  Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
                  The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
                  "Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*
                  Last edited by PizDoff; 4/05/2007 11:39am, .
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                  Comment


                    #10
                    I had trouble with the new guys at my dojo. Set a good example and show them the techniques slowly and repeatedaly at first, guiding them through different steps. Hitting them doesn't always work, and can make them think you 'got it in for them'. If they can't get it, eventually they will leave your school and that will be that.


                    Now doesn't that make you better?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      PizzDoff,

                      like Taebo Master, our school uses Chi Sao at the Chum Kiu level, can't say I have much expereince helping my younger KF brothers with chi sao, but i've helped out alot with chi dan sao, and our beginner punching/pak'ing/taun'ing excercises.

                      Alot of the time it's because they don't keep 4 principals of WC in mind that are pretty much the bases: down your center line, towards their coreline, kept your elbow down, and relax.

                      I use to teach Kempo for 2 years and one of thing teaching techniques that was easily adaptable to wing chun, is just breaking it down to it's bare essential and using analogies. But when it comes down to it, Wing Chun, or martial arts for that matter, aren't for everybody and give them the number to the local chess club :)

                      "But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals
                      Apu: "Oh! You have just been Apu'd!"

                      Comment


                        #12
                        good idea......btw these guys are physically bad as well.....


                        ARGH!!!!


                        btw i don't know how long they have been here exactly, nor what they know already....but apparently it isn't much

                        --
                        Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
                        The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
                        "Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

                        Edited by - pizdoff on April 08 2003 15:48:34
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                        https://www.instagram.com/bullshido/

                        Comment


                          #13
                          "personally i think here the practitioner is at fault (for being such an aggravating retard)"

                          I'm not sure exactly if you mean they're aggravating because they can't perform the motions correctly or if they have an aggravating personality.

                          If they have an aggravating personality and don't believe in what they're trying to do, or don't trust your teaching, then probably giving them some incentive(in the form of a little bit of pain) might be an appropriate option to show them why they're doing it wrong and that they will stop getting hit when they do it right.

                          On the other hand, if they're not being jerks and are just not getting it, I'd cut them some slack. Unless you know them personally, you probably don't know their physically abilities well enough to judge what is easy for them to do or not. I remember teaching falling and rolling, something I found easy to learn and do. Alot of people really struggled with that idea, but were putting out their best effort. I tried only to correct and tried not to put anymore pressure on them(as them tensing up was at the heart of the problem). Adding pain in this scenerio will only make it harder for them to learn, as the average person will begin to tense and "lock up", avoiding the fluid motion needed for many techniques when pain follows incorrect motions.

                          As for what is "easy", I remember a friend that I took martial arts with in high school. He had been taking martial arts since 5 or so, yet he still sucked. He had poor balance, was poor at both grappling and striking, etc. It took him much longer than others to learn body movements. I remember talking to him one day and learned that in middle school he was in a horrible accident and had to learn to walk again. He had lost all sense of balance etc and had to relearn all physical movements. This put a completely different light on his abilities in my mind. What I took for granted in having my arm or leg move in a certain way he actually had to work at telling his limbs to do. So you can never be sure what is and isn't hard for someone to do.

                          People take martial arts for a variety of reasons, many people who start are less physically able than the average person. Those that have a kind personality but lack in physical abilities are probably not taking class to get hurt repeatedly for doing something wrong. However if they're jerks and you want them to stay in your class, thats probably what they need in correctional manner.

                          Wyatt

                          Comment


                            #14
                            There's a kid in my aikido class who sometimes just doesn't get what we're doing. For instance, during jo kata, he'll have the wrong foot forward, he'll be facing the wrong way, etc. and I get the feeling he's trying his damnedest.

                            Martial dyslexia?

                            My skill with a sword is formidable. My skill with the s-word is flat-out lethal.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I have to add that over-correction is also bad in that it is incredibly frustrating/discouraging, esp. for beginners. I know it was for me. It felt like my instructor thought I was an idiot or not trying at all, when I was genuinely giving it 110%.

                              Perhaps it would be more productive to take it one step at a time...say, concentrate on getting footwork/stance right first, and then work on the striking/blocks.

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