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kajukenbo or modern combatives

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    #16
    Originally posted by DayOfTheJackass
    (and before anyone tells me it's a young art, yes I know). I'm not sure why people diss it. .

    It's not really a young art when you look at modern systems.

    Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:

    Japan
    Shotokan 1921
    Shito Ryu 1930
    Wado Ryu 1939
    Aikido 1942
    Shorinji Kempo 1946
    Shukokai 1950
    Kyokushinkai 1951
    Koei-kan 1952
    Renbukai 1964

    OKINAWA
    Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu 1947
    Isshin Ryu 1954

    Korea
    Chung do kwon 1945
    Tang Soo Do 1945
    Chang moo kwon 1946
    Tae Kwon Do 1955
    Hapkido 1950's-60's
    Hwarang do 1960
    Kuk Sul Won 1966

    America (and it's territories)
    Danzan Ryu 1930's
    Kara-ho Kempo 1940's
    Kajukenbo 1947
    American Kenpo 1950-60's
    Karazenpo Go Shin jitsu 1958
    Lima Lama 1968
    Shaolin Kempo 1971

    Comment


      #17
      Yep I hear ya. Guess I meant that I was aware its not ancient! I really shouldn't post in a situation like this, reading stuff online because my sleep patterns are screwed and I can't sleep... I've put a whole lot more 'stupid' onto teh internet tonight! EDIT: before i forget, great list! was wondering if there might be a source? I ask this not to check your cred but moreso out of my own curiousity, would like to check it out.
      Last edited by DayOfTheJackass; 11/06/2005 1:41pm, .

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by DayOfTheJackass
        Yep I hear ya. Guess I meant that I was aware its not ancient! I really shouldn't post in a situation like this, reading stuff online because my sleep patterns are screwed and I can't sleep... I've put a whole lot more 'stupid' onto teh internet tonight! EDIT: before i forget, great list! was wondering if there might be a source? I ask this not to check your cred but moreso out of my own curiousity, would like to check it out.

        Many of the dates come from the timelines in "The Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia" (1st edition titled "Martial Arts: Traditions, History, People") by John Corcoran & Emil Farkus.

        Comment


          #19
          Once again, thanks for dropping by, sir.

          Originally posted by Grashnak
          Hey, you gotta admit that in a field that is overflowing with ninjas, eye gouging stone cold killers, and people using their chi to stop opponents hearts from beating, its at least mildly amusing to run across a style called "Gaylord".

          Lighten up - I'm certainly not questioning the style (what the hell do I know) just pointing out the inconguity of the name in such a macho discipline.
          Oh yeah, you think it's funny now.... Expect a nonhumorous chi blast any second!

          =========================

          As Meex put it (more or less), Kajukenbo has great schools and, uh, some that suck. I've been lucky to be able to work out in three that were good. The worst was taught by a 1st dan who was actually good and he was the one that took on a big biker dude who walked in and wanted to see "if this stuff works." It worked, biker got to brown in a couple years...
          "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by patfromlogan
            I don't know why you say that about the Kajukenbo. The instructor's teacher is in with the boyz as far as I can tell and he calling it KSDI. I worked out in KSDI in Honolulu under Meex's reccomendation and it rocked (I was rocked, that's for sure).
            I bet your school doesn't have such cool graphics!

            link to teacher's name showed this (and why do I keep getting ignored for the Vegas Kaju parties and seminars is beyond me).
            As much as I love kajukenbo theres now 2 problems for me with it.

            1) too much groin strike eye gouge internal pointsparring bs out there. I got to meet a kaju student who had never sparred anything but point sparring.

            2) I made a post at the kajukenbo forums in which I asked if anyone felt the differance between "old school" and "new school" martial arts. I pretty much got flamed for it and had my name searched for across the internet to find "incriminating" evidence I guess. After this ordeal I canceled my account to the forums and I've resigned myself to disgusted with these guy's attitudes. It went from me seeing and hearing about real problems in the system to guys pretty much saying "well here its differant here its this" and so on and so fourth.

            the thread

            I've reread it and I know I was trying my best to avoid conflict or offense but obviously it doesn't work.

            I would also like to mention that they searched bullshido for my posts as well, and came up with a post I mentioned about the gaylord method - and how I also referenced that Sijo Emperado has stated he doesn't like when people take kajukenbo and call it their own with their own title. THIS IS WAS FROM AN ARTICLE POSTED ON KAJUKENBOINFO.COM. It was about this point I got aggrivated.

            the article

            Anyways, I finally get fed up when I was told that at 3 years of training in kajukenbo I had no liberty to make any judgements on it. I really lost quite a bit of respect for these guys because I was obviously ASKING THEM to put my doubts to rest and instead I got what the thread shows.

            Since then my opinion on kajukenbo has really taken a downhill spiral. My school rocks, our students are pretty good, my instructors are awesome... but when it comes to other school apperantly I am in no place to judge them in the name of kajukenbo so I'll judge them as a person who trains hard, a person who can turn on the TV and SEE people putting their all out in a fight as realistic as it can get, and a person who has met other martial artist. Kajukenbo is and probably always will be a TMA. Only time will tell if it becomes like most other tma's.

            Comment


              #21
              I've still got the same question for you (jking). How many other other Kajukenbo schools have you visited outside your area, since your area is primarily "Tum Pai"?
              Kajukenbo has several methods or styles. As far as I remember you train in "Kajukenbo Tum Pai", which for readers who are not aware, is a soft style of Kajukenbo that has many "tai chi" elements and soft forms in the training.
              Have you trained in any of the "Original Method" hard style schools? Or, even "Chuan Fa", or "Won Hop Kuen Do" schools? Have you visited "The Pit", where John Hackleman trains Chuck Liddell? Have you visited "The Jet Center" where Benny Urquidez and his family train some of the best kickboxers in the world?
              You keep harping on what YOU see as "wrong" with Kajukenbo. But you form your opinions on your observations of less then 5% of the system and practitioners.
              So yea, you pissed off a lot of people at the Kajukenbo Cafe with your smug judgements on how inferior they're training was. And yes, 3 years or 30 years is not enough experience to pass judgement on something you've never witnessed and experienced.
              Many people made friendly invitations to you to visit their schools and workout. So how many offers have you accepted? Better yet, how many actual Kajukenbo schools have you actually trained in, or observed?

              Comment


                #22
                The invitations are fine, thats not the issue and never was in my mind.

                The issue was that I had only saw a few schools (which you make an excellent point, that is not 100% or even 50% of all schools). The other issue was the people I had met who described to me a very differant kajukenbo they had exceperienced than the way I had.

                My question, as you remember, was if this "new school" version of kajukenbo was overcoming the old methods. I had doubts that I wanted put to rest. It also seems that the second I mentioned MMA though (which I stated that I felt kajukenbo would be good in that sort of environment) things went out the window. I got pressed on mma instead of my question by a few people.

                Instead of any answers, I received judgement of my own on behalf of the people on your board. Many people were kind enough to leave posts that was exactly the answers I was hoping for. It wasn't until about the post you pointed out my age and my apperant lack of experience in the system that (I'm not sure if it was because of this post or what) that suddenly I had said something to MAJORLY offend everyone. I left because 1) I was very very embarassed that I had offended big names within our own system and 2) I was very angry that I received reprimand for what I said.

                I didn't want it to be a big issue, and it became one. Why stick around for that?

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by JKing
                  I didn't want it to be a big issue, and it became one. Why stick around for that?
                  Because you could have learned a lot from some very seasoned practitioners of your own art. Something many practitioners of other arts would love a opportunity to have.
                  Instead when it got a little hot, you cut and run. That's definetely not "old school Kajukenbo".

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Then I apologize. in the end however, I had embarassed myself and left with more questions than I came in with. I left when things became a bit hostile. I repeated again and again that I had some views and that I am not trying to offend but people took offense anyways.

                    I left because I want anything that I say to be held accountable to myself, and not my school or those I associate with - and when I found that you had searched bullshido for my remarks then I was being persecuted. my thought? how much longer until someone starts asking people around about me and I had fellow students come up to me and say "did you say this" and "did you say that." My opinions are my own and I presented them to your forum.

                    Again, I apologize that I made a grave offense. However, you have to see it from my perspective. When a student has doubts is the answer to tell him that he doesn't have enough experience? You and the others on that board are big names in the world of kaju and to get hostility instead of help from these people didn't do much to help for my doubts.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Hey JKing, I just read most (well, much...) of the thread and actually, while there were some comments that I could see would bother you, I think that you should have stayed in the conversation. Bishop obviously thought that you had misrepresented yourself. I don't think you actually were doing that. I've posted in different forums and my persona is different and I'm addressing a different group with dif goals and agendas in mind.

                      Interesting thread, IMHO.

                      Now when you get the $ and time, go check out Prof Emperaldo's KSDI in Honolulu (best rates I've seen have been down to a week hotel + air @$700, but if you go like we used to in our student days, it's $269 right now on Expedia rdtrip LA/HNL and stay in a hostel). I think you'd love it. And I sure the hell didn't see any point sparring.
                      "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by JKing
                        Then I apologize. in the end however, I had embarassed myself and left with more questions than I came in with. I left when things became a bit hostile. I repeated again and again that I had some views and that I am not trying to offend but people took offense anyways.
                        No need to apoligize to me. I can't remember how many times I've embarrassed myself in my life, and I'm sure there will be few more occassions in the future.
                        But a lot of times you bring hostility on yourself. You opened with:

                        "It has come to my attention through various meetings with groups and people, as well as SEVERAL online sources that kajukenbo is getting something.

                        A bad reputation.

                        It has come to my attention that many people are starting to beleive that kajukenbo pretty much sucks - and sometimes i am inclined to agree with them."


                        Not really a opening statement that elicits a warm response. Especially when it comes from one of your own.

                        Originally posted by JKing
                        I left because I want anything that I say to be held accountable to myself, and not my school or those I associate with - and when I found that you had searched bullshido for my remarks then I was being persecuted. my thought? how much longer until someone starts asking people around about me and I had fellow students come up to me and say "did you say this" and "did you say that." My opinions are my own and I presented them to your forum.
                        Our forum membership includes hundreds of Kajukenbo members from our founder, Sijo Emperado, the founder of your branch GM Loren, GM Hackleman (Chuck Liddel's teacher), all the way down to beginning white belts. It's your family too. Everyone is there to share and learn from each other.
                        Whenever you post anything on the internet, someone is going to read it, whether it's here, Martial Talk, Kenponet, Kajukenbo Cafe, etc.
                        So if you feel so strongly about your opinion, then don't be ashamed, or feel "persecuted" when you present them anywhere where they can be read.

                        Originally posted by JKing
                        Again, I apologize that I made a grave offense. However, you have to see it from my perspective. When a student has doubts is the answer to tell him that he doesn't have enough experience? You and the others on that board are big names in the world of kaju and to get hostility instead of help from these people didn't do much to help for my doubts.
                        Nothing wrong with being young and inquisitive. Just don't make the mistake of assuming that you can never be wrong.
                        Over and over people asked you what experiences you based your opinions on. And you never gave a specific answer. So they started to take you less and less seriously. There are thousands of Kajukenbo schools in over 27 countries, so you can't base opinions on what you see coming from 5 schools, or even 50 schools. And you definetely can't form a opinion on what you read on the internet.
                        Sometimes when your too stuck on your own opinion, you don't realize that you may have been disrespectful to your own system and it's members.
                        Respect and politeness goes a long way in opening doors to knowledge and making friends, whether your a white belt or grandmaster. And it takes a lot of guts to apoligize and admit when your wrong, or out of line, but it also buys you a lot of respect.


                        Anyway, I need to apoligize to the members here for hijacking this thread.
                        Mr. King, if you have anything more you want to discuss, or even argue, feel free to email me. Like it or not, as long as you call yourself Kajukenbo, we're family.

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