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For the parents...advice needed

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    #31
    Originally posted by miguksaram
    Though it wasn't the cause of this particular incident, my kid is mixed Korean/White. Sooner or later we will have to deal with that issue amongst the ignorant.



    I don't teach him to be afraid of hurting someone. I do try to instill a sense of caution in how he uses what he knows. I am being the biased father for now in saying I feel that whatever my kid did to defend himself was just. Why? Because I know him enough to know that he would never strike another person unless he felt there was no other way out of it. I teach my kids to be themselves and be true to themselves above all else. Not everyone will like them, but as long as they know they are good people, then who gives a rat's ass about the others. I teach them to be proud of both of their Korean and Americna heritage so that is never a problem.

    BTW...racism affects everyone. Granted I don't get it as much as a minority, but I still get the comments and looks from the Koreans and other Asians when we are out together.
    Shut up megook! :)

    A sense of caution kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? No time to think, just react.

    Trust in your kid, in his upbringing. I know my son won't snap a kids arm and would go for the choke instead. My twins are 11 as well, and starting to understand their actions are accountable.
    Originally posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".

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      #32
      Wow!!
      This is freaky...
      just now, about 4.5 hours after I posted here, I got a call from school.
      Apparently, the counselor told me that some bullies tackled KP2 in the school yard.
      The only reason she called was because he was concerned that he would get in trouble for having grass stain on his pants.
      I can't what to hear what his story as to what actually happened. Nurse said there were no scraps, bruises, or black eyes...just grass stains. Even if no knuckles were flying, I wouldn't be suprised if he tried to guillotine the tackler.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Anthony
        Shut up megook! :)

        A sense of caution kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? No time to think, just react.

        Trust in your kid, in his upbringing. I know my son won't snap a kids arm and would go for the choke instead. My twins are 11 as well, and starting to understand their actions are accountable.
        No you shut up Anchovie :).....

        I do trust my kid, which is why I gave him the decision to handle it himself or let me get involved if he needed my help. Again, until it is proven otherwise, I fully believe that my son did not use excessive force in dealing with the situation. If so perhaps, the LAPD, has a spot on their roster for him. :hello2:
        Jeremy M. Talbott

        Originally posted by Phrost
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        Originally posted by D.Murray
        "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
        Originally posted by hangooknamja88
        My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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          #34
          Whatever you do, don't instill morals in him that will turn him into a pussy.
          Tough is not how you act, tough is how you train.

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            #35
            Dude, you may trust him and all, but it's the other guy with missing tooth. That equals excessive force.

            Tomas


            Originally posted by miguksaram
            No you shut up Anchovie :).....

            I do trust my kid, which is why I gave him the decision to handle it himself or let me get involved if he needed my help. Again, until it is proven otherwise, I fully believe that my son did not use excessive force in dealing with the situation. If so perhaps, the LAPD, has a spot on their roster for him. :hello2:
            Current stage of death: denial

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              #36
              Just give him a gun to take to school for protection.

              Or... like was said, tell him to apologize. But, tell him to do it like I would: "I'm sorry I beat the shit out of you and had you in the palm of my hand. Let's be friends again, ok?"

              PL

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by drummerboy
                Dude, you may trust him and all, but it's the other guy with missing tooth. That equals excessive force.

                Tomas
                No it doesn't, not even close. A lot more information is needed to make that call.

                Also, remember that this whole force continuum thing is basically a law enforcement paradigm, and takes a lot of training in order to be able to properly make the call in terms of the appropriate amount of escalation. Civilians, even MA are not presumed to have the ability to make those calls as accurately as a LEO. The notion certainly applies to civilians in a legal sense, it's just not scrutinized to the same degree.

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                  #38
                  I'm not saying it is true. I'm saying that it will be hard to convince people like his parents (who also trust their son 100% btw) and anybody who wasn't there that it wasn't excessive force. And I assme all the whitnesses are 10-11 yo kids.
                  The truth is that you will never know the truth, and I'm not sure it is healthy to pursue it. It may cause more trauma to the kids than simple statement saying "I'm sorry I broke your tooth".
                  Kids will fight, it's kids. But they shouldn't break each other's teeth.

                  How do you define excessive force with 11 yo kids?
                  Are you going to argue that the one that is missing his tooth used excessive force on the one that still has all his teeth?
                  How do you know what would have happened if he didn't knock the other kid's tooth out? Would anything worse happen? There's no way to tell.

                  Tomas


                  Originally posted by lawdog
                  No it doesn't, not even close. A lot more information is needed to make that call.

                  Also, remember that this whole force continuum thing is basically a law enforcement paradigm, and takes a lot of training in order to be able to properly make the call in terms of the appropriate amount of escalation. Civilians, even MA are not presumed to have the ability to make those calls as accurately as a LEO. The notion certainly applies to civilians in a legal sense, it's just not scrutinized to the same degree.
                  Current stage of death: denial

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by drummerboy
                    I'm not saying it is true. I'm saying that it will be hard to convince people like his parents (who also trust their son 100% btw) and anybody who wasn't there that it wasn't excessive force. And I assme all the whitnesses are 10-11 yo kids.
                    The truth is that you will never know the truth, and I'm not sure it is healthy to pursue it. It may cause more trauma to the kids than simple statement saying "I'm sorry I broke your tooth".
                    Kids will fight, it's kids. But they shouldn't break each other's teeth.

                    How do you define excessive force with 11 yo kids?
                    Are you going to argue that the one that is missing his tooth used excessive force on the one that still has all his teeth?
                    How do you know what would have happened if he didn't knock the other kid's tooth out? Would anything worse happen? There's no way to tell.

                    Tomas
                    I agree with you regarding perception, but the thing is that's always the case whether we're talking about kids or adults. It's sort of like the choke hold. LE used to be able to use a choke hold to subdue a person, now most cannot b/c "choking" somebody is perceived as barbaric. Despite the fact that striking the person (either with hands or an asp) will typically cause far more damage than a choke, most people know so little about choke holds that they are perceived as much more brutal. Now the same arguments are being made about tazers, they look barbaric so lots of people who have no problems with cops tackling and physically fighting a perpetrator, or using an asp to subdue him, are up in arms about tazers, despite the fact that they are much safer than going "hands on".

                    Perception has always been, and will always be a problem in terms of self defense. I have no idea what the other kids parents or the other kids think in terms of the reaction. None of us were there and have absolutely no way of determining that without speaking to others who witnessed it. But losing a baby tooth does not excessive force make.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by lawdog
                      Civilians, even MA are not presumed to have the ability to make those calls as accurately as a LEO. The notion certainly applies to civilians in a legal sense, it's just not scrutinized to the same degree.

                      That's wrong, unfortunately. There was an article in Black Belt about 2 years ago on MArtial Artists and the court systems citing cases where a martial artists training was used in cases where the artist was accused of using excessive force in a self defense situation, including a TDK Yellow Belt.

                      When a case goes to a jury, the average person still equates a black belt with meaning something, better trained, better control, more deadly, and in a trial, that perception counts.

                      I'll see if I can find the article online somewhere.

                      *Edit: They don't seem to have their archieves online anymore, I'll see if I can find my hardcopy anywhere, but don't hold your breath, I gave away a lot of mags recently to people.
                      Last edited by Peter H.; 11/04/2005 4:49pm, .
                      "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
                      -My three year old trash talking to me

                      "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
                      -The Honky Tonk Man

                      "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
                      -My Father to me one day

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                      -Don Gwinn

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Peter H.
                        That's wrong, unfortunately. There was an article in Black Belt about 2 years ago on MArtial Artists and the court systems citing cases where a martial artists training was used in cases where the artist was accused of using excessive force in a self defense situation, including a TDK Yellow Belt.

                        When a case goes to a jury, the average person still equates a black belt with meaning something, better trained, better control, more deadly, and in a trial, that perception counts.

                        I'll see if I can find the article online somewhere.

                        *Edit: They don't seem to have their archieves online anymore, I'll see if I can find my hardcopy anywhere, but don't hold your breath, I gave away a lot of mags recently to people.
                        I'm aware of that and have reviewed many such cases involving martial artists.

                        I never said being a martial artist, especially a "black belt" is insignificant. It is often a significant factor in a SD case, although I believe it's played up too much. It's signifigance is merely one small aspect of the case. The elements that the state has to prove are still the same. Being a MA is not much different than being 6'6" 275 lbs of solid muscle either. The analysis is still the same. It goes to the subjective belief of the person regarding imminent danger. Being a former football player has been a significant factor in SD cases.

                        Also, I'm sure that for every case that was cited, there are probably hundreds that weren't where MA training was an insignificant factor in the SD trial.

                        As for juror ignorance, that's where the defense attorney failed to properly screen and/or subsequnetly educate the jurors on the realities of MA tarining.

                        But regardless, MA are still not presumed to be able to make the same judgments regrading force continuum as a LEO.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Okay, let me put some input into this that hasn't been stated. Have you waited to see what the outcome is?

                          No.

                          You and the other parents may be mightly emabarrassed. I have been in and witnessed many dust ups between friends. 99.9% of the time, while the parents are fueding, the kids are best friends again. I have seen this on many ocassions. Hell, my mom and neighbor had a nasty argument about me kicking this kids ass.

                          He threw a rock at me and ran. When I caught up to him I snatched him out of his doorway, punched him in the face, and threw him head first into his front door. The door flew open, slammed the wal,l and scared the shit out of his mom. My mom and Dad come out his mom and dad come out and everyone (okay just the women) was yelling..................................





                          A few days later, me and the kid, were playing like nothing had ever happened.


                          I ran from one fight in my life. My dad laid into (no beating) and said:

                          "if you are man enough to start something, you better be man enough to finish what you started." That stayed with me all these years because I heard my dad curse 2 in my life.




                          Tomas: Your situation sucks but my daughter just went through the same situation with out violence. Guess what? It started off with one kid picking on her and escalated into a group of kids spitting on her and ready to jump her after school. My daughter's use of non-violence ended up exactly in the same situation as you.

                          So it is, "damned if you do damned if you don't." Best part, the kids were all of the same race.


                          Anyway Migurk, pay the dental bill, get it in writing that is all they want.

                          Don't apologize that is your kid admitting guilt. I bet SB and LD can find cases on that for you. Just like any lawyer will tell you don't admitt fault at the scene of an accident. That logic applies to anything, in my book, that may involve litigation.

                          My sig sums up the way I teach my kids.

                          2 things Migurk

                          1) Back your son 100%. Right or wrong back him 100% until he gives you reason not to trust you.

                          2) Wait and see what happens next time. Once cooler heads prevail many things can be worked out. Honestly how would you feel if your son came home with his ass whooped? Don't give me any BS answer, most men would be embarrassed.


                          Now, you are on the escalator and it can only go up from here. Parents were involved, now the school is involved, if the threats are credible police can be involved. It can turn into one big clusterfuck.

                          One more question if you son is half Korean, with and A average, does that mean if he was full korean he would have an A++ average? :toothy10:

                          Just kidding the thread was getting to serious.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I did not read the other replies so if this is redundant, my bad.

                            Some things to consider:

                            1. 11 is a bit young to be fighting regardless of where you live, it has absolutley no point.

                            2. I would say talking to the parents and explaining it all, then coming up with a solution you both agree upon is priority #1.

                            3. You are responsible for your kid as a juvenile -- You are also the person who will be sued by another parent if there is a fight that ends up with injuries.
                            Check your homeowners as they will sue you both personally and through your insurance. It will also be expensive regardless of fault, you will have a tough time defending it just by the nature of the suit. Furthermore, if it gets out through your kids friends that you told him to "go at it if needed" you are in a very tight spot.

                            4. If somethign was to happen are you prepared to face the consequences of not only being sued, but having your son kicked out of the school system and you have to shuttle him every day somewhere else and perhaps pay for private school.

                            5. You should have already sent the school a certified letter outlining the problem, phone calls are not documented if and when something happens.

                            There are no drunk people to blame the fight on, it is 2 kids whose parents will be judged by thier kids actions.

                            Late for dinner but hopefully you see some value here--sorry about spelling

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by beachfront71
                              Some things to consider:

                              1. 11 is a bit young to be fighting regardless of where you live, it has absolutley no point.
                              This is just too difficult to ignore. Yes, in a perfect world fighting would be unnecessary, however we do not live in a perfect world. Regardless of a person's age, preventing another human being from inflicting harm upon you is a perfectly valid reason to fight.
                              3......Check your homeowners as they will sue you both personally and through your insurance. It will also be expensive regardless of fault, you will have a tough time defending it just by the nature of the suit. Furthermore, if it gets out through your kids friends that you told him to "go at it if needed" you are in a very tight spot.
                              That's a misconception, it's not the way it works. They will not sue his homeowners policy. If there were to be a lawsuit, yes, the parents would be named as defendants. Depending on the terms of the homewowners policy, it may or may not cover them. If it covers them, they will pay nothing for a defense, the entire defense will be handled by their homeowners carrier and any damages awarded would be paid by the carrier up to the policy limits. this case would probably never even be filed, but would be settled pre-suit by his carrier. If it were filed, it would not be particularly expensive to defend.

                              And teaching your child to defend themeselves does not , in any way, put the parents in a tight spot.
                              Last edited by lawdog; 11/04/2005 8:00pm, .

                              Comment


                                #45
                                1. Opinons may vary but it is what it is, 11 is not an age where competent decisions are consistantly made
                                2. Let me be more specific, In CA you cvan go after both, you can be sued personally and go after insurance depending on the circumstances
                                3. I did not say teaching your kids defense will put you in a tight spot, I said "if it gets out through your kids friends that you told him to "go at it if needed" you are in a very tight spot. "


                                But take Lawdogs route and tell him to beat the shit out of the guy and let us know what happens next.

                                Still waiting on ride for dinner-

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