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For the parents...advice needed

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  • lawdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter H.
    That's wrong, unfortunately. There was an article in Black Belt about 2 years ago on MArtial Artists and the court systems citing cases where a martial artists training was used in cases where the artist was accused of using excessive force in a self defense situation, including a TDK Yellow Belt.

    When a case goes to a jury, the average person still equates a black belt with meaning something, better trained, better control, more deadly, and in a trial, that perception counts.

    I'll see if I can find the article online somewhere.

    *Edit: They don't seem to have their archieves online anymore, I'll see if I can find my hardcopy anywhere, but don't hold your breath, I gave away a lot of mags recently to people.
    I'm aware of that and have reviewed many such cases involving martial artists.

    I never said being a martial artist, especially a "black belt" is insignificant. It is often a significant factor in a SD case, although I believe it's played up too much. It's signifigance is merely one small aspect of the case. The elements that the state has to prove are still the same. Being a MA is not much different than being 6'6" 275 lbs of solid muscle either. The analysis is still the same. It goes to the subjective belief of the person regarding imminent danger. Being a former football player has been a significant factor in SD cases.

    Also, I'm sure that for every case that was cited, there are probably hundreds that weren't where MA training was an insignificant factor in the SD trial.

    As for juror ignorance, that's where the defense attorney failed to properly screen and/or subsequnetly educate the jurors on the realities of MA tarining.

    But regardless, MA are still not presumed to be able to make the same judgments regrading force continuum as a LEO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter H.
    replied
    Originally posted by lawdog
    Civilians, even MA are not presumed to have the ability to make those calls as accurately as a LEO. The notion certainly applies to civilians in a legal sense, it's just not scrutinized to the same degree.

    That's wrong, unfortunately. There was an article in Black Belt about 2 years ago on MArtial Artists and the court systems citing cases where a martial artists training was used in cases where the artist was accused of using excessive force in a self defense situation, including a TDK Yellow Belt.

    When a case goes to a jury, the average person still equates a black belt with meaning something, better trained, better control, more deadly, and in a trial, that perception counts.

    I'll see if I can find the article online somewhere.

    *Edit: They don't seem to have their archieves online anymore, I'll see if I can find my hardcopy anywhere, but don't hold your breath, I gave away a lot of mags recently to people.
    Last edited by Peter H.; 11/04/2005 4:49pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • lawdog
    replied
    Originally posted by drummerboy
    I'm not saying it is true. I'm saying that it will be hard to convince people like his parents (who also trust their son 100% btw) and anybody who wasn't there that it wasn't excessive force. And I assme all the whitnesses are 10-11 yo kids.
    The truth is that you will never know the truth, and I'm not sure it is healthy to pursue it. It may cause more trauma to the kids than simple statement saying "I'm sorry I broke your tooth".
    Kids will fight, it's kids. But they shouldn't break each other's teeth.

    How do you define excessive force with 11 yo kids?
    Are you going to argue that the one that is missing his tooth used excessive force on the one that still has all his teeth?
    How do you know what would have happened if he didn't knock the other kid's tooth out? Would anything worse happen? There's no way to tell.

    Tomas
    I agree with you regarding perception, but the thing is that's always the case whether we're talking about kids or adults. It's sort of like the choke hold. LE used to be able to use a choke hold to subdue a person, now most cannot b/c "choking" somebody is perceived as barbaric. Despite the fact that striking the person (either with hands or an asp) will typically cause far more damage than a choke, most people know so little about choke holds that they are perceived as much more brutal. Now the same arguments are being made about tazers, they look barbaric so lots of people who have no problems with cops tackling and physically fighting a perpetrator, or using an asp to subdue him, are up in arms about tazers, despite the fact that they are much safer than going "hands on".

    Perception has always been, and will always be a problem in terms of self defense. I have no idea what the other kids parents or the other kids think in terms of the reaction. None of us were there and have absolutely no way of determining that without speaking to others who witnessed it. But losing a baby tooth does not excessive force make.

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  • dramaboy
    replied
    I'm not saying it is true. I'm saying that it will be hard to convince people like his parents (who also trust their son 100% btw) and anybody who wasn't there that it wasn't excessive force. And I assme all the whitnesses are 10-11 yo kids.
    The truth is that you will never know the truth, and I'm not sure it is healthy to pursue it. It may cause more trauma to the kids than simple statement saying "I'm sorry I broke your tooth".
    Kids will fight, it's kids. But they shouldn't break each other's teeth.

    How do you define excessive force with 11 yo kids?
    Are you going to argue that the one that is missing his tooth used excessive force on the one that still has all his teeth?
    How do you know what would have happened if he didn't knock the other kid's tooth out? Would anything worse happen? There's no way to tell.

    Tomas


    Originally posted by lawdog
    No it doesn't, not even close. A lot more information is needed to make that call.

    Also, remember that this whole force continuum thing is basically a law enforcement paradigm, and takes a lot of training in order to be able to properly make the call in terms of the appropriate amount of escalation. Civilians, even MA are not presumed to have the ability to make those calls as accurately as a LEO. The notion certainly applies to civilians in a legal sense, it's just not scrutinized to the same degree.

    Leave a comment:


  • lawdog
    replied
    Originally posted by drummerboy
    Dude, you may trust him and all, but it's the other guy with missing tooth. That equals excessive force.

    Tomas
    No it doesn't, not even close. A lot more information is needed to make that call.

    Also, remember that this whole force continuum thing is basically a law enforcement paradigm, and takes a lot of training in order to be able to properly make the call in terms of the appropriate amount of escalation. Civilians, even MA are not presumed to have the ability to make those calls as accurately as a LEO. The notion certainly applies to civilians in a legal sense, it's just not scrutinized to the same degree.

    Leave a comment:


  • Poop Loops
    replied
    Just give him a gun to take to school for protection.

    Or... like was said, tell him to apologize. But, tell him to do it like I would: "I'm sorry I beat the shit out of you and had you in the palm of my hand. Let's be friends again, ok?"

    PL

    Leave a comment:


  • dramaboy
    replied
    Dude, you may trust him and all, but it's the other guy with missing tooth. That equals excessive force.

    Tomas


    Originally posted by miguksaram
    No you shut up Anchovie :).....

    I do trust my kid, which is why I gave him the decision to handle it himself or let me get involved if he needed my help. Again, until it is proven otherwise, I fully believe that my son did not use excessive force in dealing with the situation. If so perhaps, the LAPD, has a spot on their roster for him. :hello2:

    Leave a comment:


  • feedback
    replied
    Whatever you do, don't instill morals in him that will turn him into a pussy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miguksaram
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony
    Shut up megook! :)

    A sense of caution kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? No time to think, just react.

    Trust in your kid, in his upbringing. I know my son won't snap a kids arm and would go for the choke instead. My twins are 11 as well, and starting to understand their actions are accountable.
    No you shut up Anchovie :).....

    I do trust my kid, which is why I gave him the decision to handle it himself or let me get involved if he needed my help. Again, until it is proven otherwise, I fully believe that my son did not use excessive force in dealing with the situation. If so perhaps, the LAPD, has a spot on their roster for him. :hello2:

    Leave a comment:


  • KhorneliusPraxx
    replied
    Wow!!
    This is freaky...
    just now, about 4.5 hours after I posted here, I got a call from school.
    Apparently, the counselor told me that some bullies tackled KP2 in the school yard.
    The only reason she called was because he was concerned that he would get in trouble for having grass stain on his pants.
    I can't what to hear what his story as to what actually happened. Nurse said there were no scraps, bruises, or black eyes...just grass stains. Even if no knuckles were flying, I wouldn't be suprised if he tried to guillotine the tackler.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pandinha
    replied
    Originally posted by miguksaram
    Though it wasn't the cause of this particular incident, my kid is mixed Korean/White. Sooner or later we will have to deal with that issue amongst the ignorant.



    I don't teach him to be afraid of hurting someone. I do try to instill a sense of caution in how he uses what he knows. I am being the biased father for now in saying I feel that whatever my kid did to defend himself was just. Why? Because I know him enough to know that he would never strike another person unless he felt there was no other way out of it. I teach my kids to be themselves and be true to themselves above all else. Not everyone will like them, but as long as they know they are good people, then who gives a rat's ass about the others. I teach them to be proud of both of their Korean and Americna heritage so that is never a problem.

    BTW...racism affects everyone. Granted I don't get it as much as a minority, but I still get the comments and looks from the Koreans and other Asians when we are out together.
    Shut up megook! :)

    A sense of caution kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? No time to think, just react.

    Trust in your kid, in his upbringing. I know my son won't snap a kids arm and would go for the choke instead. My twins are 11 as well, and starting to understand their actions are accountable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter H.
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony
    First post since Wilma.

    Are some of you fuckers out of your mind?

    This is the time to instill the killer instinct in your children.

    I live by better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. My children know this and I have drilled it into them since they were 4 and were bullied and attcked by kids their age.

    I guess some of you are white, or fit right in. For those of us who are different, it's a whole another story. We get picked on because of race, size, weight, whatever. You do not back down from this, at any age.

    Hit first, hit hard, and run fast. My children do not live in fear. In fact, my son has walked away from more fights than he's been in. Having a twin sister who is just as good in BJJ as he is helps even out the situation.

    My advice, do not teach your child to fear what he is capable of, or fear being himself.

    "There exists a law, not written down anywhere but inborn in our heart; a law that comes to us not by training or custom or reading but from nature itself, if our lives are endangered, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right."
    -Roman Orator Cicero

    It's school yard scrap, not a freaking gang war Anthony. There is a concept of appropriate response. No one is saying he should have backed down, he was attacked, and he struck back, my opinion is, from the description of the incident here, a slap to the face did not warrant the pummelling delivered.

    No, his son deals with the escalation. When I was in high school I got picked on because I was short, pudgy, unathletic, wore glasses, and had a mullet and a drawl, mixed with being the same asshole I am now. Guy decided that name calling was enough and pushed me. I kicked him square in the balls. Since I would fight back against one, not long later, I had to face three. I didn't win, I didn't know shit about fighting then, but I fought back. So they got more. Kept going until the fight spilled over into the parking lot of the gym across the street from the school, I think there were 5 or six guys v me that time. I got my ass pummeled on a regular basis.

    It was years later that I was attacked again. A pissed off used car salesman at the car lot I worked at. By then, I had some training under my belt, I was in a hell of a lot better shape thanks to puberty, karate, and track, and I easily could has schooled this guy on the various methods of pummelage, and I would be within my right since he attacked me first. But it wasn't worth it, since I had to comeback to work the next day at this same car lot and would deal with the reprocussions of my actions. So I grabbed the guy and slammed him against a truck and pinned him there until he realized the stupidity of what he did.

    That's what is happening here, Migu has got to end it before it hits that next fight. And his son has probably learned a valuable lesson in that it is better to walk away and if you are going to fight, don't take it too far.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miguksaram
    replied
    Well it is past lunch time and I did not receive a call from the school replying to my initial message about the incident at hand. Then again, I didn't get the "Mr. Talbott you son is being suspended for beating up the 5th grade either". So I guess nothing happened as of today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miguksaram
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony
    I guess some of you are white, or fit right in. For those of us who are different, it's a whole another story. We get picked on because of race, size, weight, whatever. You do not back down from this, at any age.
    Though it wasn't the cause of this particular incident, my kid is mixed Korean/White. Sooner or later we will have to deal with that issue amongst the ignorant.

    Originally posted by Anthony
    My advice, do not teach your child to fear what he is capable of, or fear being himself.
    I don't teach him to be afraid of hurting someone. I do try to instill a sense of caution in how he uses what he knows. I am being the biased father for now in saying I feel that whatever my kid did to defend himself was just. Why? Because I know him enough to know that he would never strike another person unless he felt there was no other way out of it. I teach my kids to be themselves and be true to themselves above all else. Not everyone will like them, but as long as they know they are good people, then who gives a rat's ass about the others. I teach them to be proud of both of their Korean and Americna heritage so that is never a problem.

    BTW...racism affects everyone. Granted I don't get it as much as a minority, but I still get the comments and looks from the Koreans and other Asians when we are out together.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Kai
    replied
    Dude
    Wow, good luck
    Did your son overreact because of the build up of tension, having to deal with this bull shit over weeks of time.

    I don't know about apaologizing or paying. Make it clear that if that kid keeps his hands to himself this shit won't happen.

    In a different setting I'd tell your boy to go to the other boys friends on a one to one basis. Make friends, undermine his support/cheering section, plus make the other kids see him as a human being-not some brainic wonderkid (can you tell that I was not part of that smart clique in HS??)

    My 2 cents

    Leave a comment:

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