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    #31
    Originally posted by kickcatcher

    Answer us this: If there were no rules with regard the strikes that could be employed, would a Shou Shu trained fighter 'easily' beat a grappling orientated MMA fighter?

    loaded question

    Comment


      #32
      How is this a loaded question? Early UFC events allowed nearly any strikes, and still the grapplers won over the Kung Fu guys.

      Now let me say, I am sure a PERFECTLY executed elbow strike to the back of my neck could take me out of a fight. But what are the odds of that happening? Same with eye gouges. Ever try to hit a target about 1 inch across while it's moving and trying to kick your ass? Take away all of the rules, and the grappler can do things like drop you on your head. Head versus concrete = bad. Ever seen Randleman or Matt Hughes slam people? Then there are neck cranks and chokes, crossfacing, small joint manipulation, etc. etc. When the rules are off, everyone's game changes, not just the mystical warriors of eye poking.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by BeastApprentice
        loaded question
        Loaded in that if you say "yes" it will amount to a bullshit claim and people will disect it to reveal the fallacious foundations of the "too deadly" argument, and if you say "no" it will reveal the bullshit in your comments towards the validity of MMA etc.

        Seems to me you want it all ways. You want to claim that Shou Shu is too deadly for MMA (et al) by implying that Shou Shu'ers have to cross-train for MMA because they are too limited by MMA rules (conveniently overlooking the glaring fact that Shou Shu doesn't have meaningful grappling), and at the same time cite MMA performances by a handful of the thousands of Shou Shu'ers as proof of it's effectiveness, whilst implying that it's even more effective on the street.

        And how about a "yes" or "no" on the yearly contract issue?
        You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
        FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

        just die already.
        Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


        Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
        Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by kickcatcher
          Loaded in that if you say "yes" it will amount to a bullshit claim and people will disect it to reveal the fallacious foundations of the "too deadly" argument, and if you say "no" it will reveal the bullshit in your comments towards the validity of MMA etc.

          Seems to me you want it all ways. You want to claim that Shou Shu is too deadly for MMA (et al) by implying that Shou Shu'ers have to cross-train for MMA because they are too limited by MMA rules (conveniently overlooking the glaring fact that Shou Shu doesn't have meaningful grappling), and at the same time cite MMA performances by a handful of the thousands of Shou Shu'ers as proof of it's effectiveness, whilst implying that it's even more effective on the street.

          And how about a "yes" or "no" on the yearly contract issue?
          There are contracts, its a business for the head instructor.

          Yes to your first question. and you kick have yet to understand that those that compete do it because they want to not because the art has to prove itself to the world.

          i have answered your questions long enough. unless you can come to a school and see and feel for yourself its useless to continue the conversation.

          Comment


            #35
            How much is the yearly contract in your school and what are the grading fees.
            You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
            FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

            just die already.
            Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


            Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
            Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by kickcatcher
              How much is the yearly contract in your school and what are the grading fees.

              i pay monthly(rates vary by school and location) Not my place to talk about grading fees. I dont run the school i train in it.

              I know i pay alot less than all the MA schools in my area and i get more training time.
              Last edited by BeastApprentice; 9/21/2005 11:47am, .

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by trfcrugby
                How is this a loaded question? Early UFC events allowed nearly any strikes, and still the grapplers won over the Kung Fu guys.

                Now let me say, I am sure a PERFECTLY executed elbow strike to the back of my neck could take me out of a fight. But what are the odds of that happening? Same with eye gouges. Ever try to hit a target about 1 inch across while it's moving and trying to kick your ass? Take away all of the rules, and the grappler can do things like drop you on your head. Head versus concrete = bad. Ever seen Randleman or Matt Hughes slam people? Then there are neck cranks and chokes, crossfacing, small joint manipulation, etc. etc. When the rules are off, everyone's game changes, not just the mystical warriors of eye poking.
                Still the "boxing sport" of the 21st century.

                your such an idiot. Royce said it himself "its no longer style vs. style which was the original intent. Its now everyone trains in the same stuff and its now just how good of a fighter are you." SAME AS BOXING DEE DEE DEE

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by BeastApprentice
                  Still the "boxing sport" of the 21st century.

                  your such an idiot. Royce said it himself "its no longer style vs. style which was the original intent. Its now everyone trains in the same stuff and its now just how good of a fighter are you." SAME AS BOXING DEE DEE DEE
                  Wow, you just straw manned him good!

                  Unfortunately you were unable to either understand or respond to his very reasonable observation: When you remove all the rules, everyones game changes. And while you may believe that this mythical elbow to spine technique, eyepoke, and groin biting will save you - the reality is these UFC fighters can also do this to you.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by BeastApprentice
                    Still the "boxing sport" of the 21st century.

                    your such an idiot. Royce said it himself "its no longer style vs. style which was the original intent. Its now everyone trains in the same stuff and its now just how good of a fighter are you." SAME AS BOXING DEE DEE DEE
                    I am an idiot? You just said everyone trains everything...yet Shou Shu'ers do not need to? I do now train everything, stand up, ground fighting...everything. I don't assume my stand up game will work on the ground, as you have previously stated. Let me clue you in on a little secret. I wrestled in college, and I thought I would do good against the BJJ guys. I am strong, athletic, and have decent cardio, and moderate greco wrestling skills. I was wrong, and spent the first couple of classes in triangles and arm bars. Punching on the ground is NOT easy, especially if the other guy has a ground game. I would try to set up a punch, and end up arm barred. So no, your stand up game will not work on the ground. I even tried a Shou Shu arm lock on the ground from guard and IT DID NOT WORK. Totally different game, whether you care to admit it or not.

                    In fact, if I were an instructor, I would recommend BJJ to women, since many (not all, but most), assaults against women end up with the woman on the ground, the attacker in her guard.

                    Call me all the names you want, I can care less. It only furthers my point of arrogance and conceit in Shou Shu.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Sirc
                      Moore's Karate:

                      So uh... can anyone tell me anything about Shou Shu kung fu... or Shou Shu "Karate" as the local schools call it.

                      Anyone? I can't find anything about it that isn't on the Moore's Karate website. I didn't think that any Kung Fu schools had colored belt systems, I've always been under the impression it's always been a sash system...

                      www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com Is their link.

                      I've gone in and sparred 4 of their top black belt students and I really only had trouble with one of them, being their top student and teacher who wasn't making thousands of dollars. He had really quick hands, but I eventually managed to outfootwork him and get a few body roundhouses, a crecent kick to the face and a leg sweep.

                      Anybody?
                      Sirc,

                      My bullshit detector just started going off. I thought you said in another thread that those 4 "top black belt students" were actually 3 black belts and 1 brown belt, and at least one is a friend of yours. Couldn't you just ask them about Shou Shu then?

                      At this point, I think I set the probability of your story being true at about 10%... it's down there with the divinity of Christ and the Easter bunny for me. I'm sensing an ulterior motive with your derogatory representation of Shou Shu.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Acira
                        Sirc,

                        My bullshit detector just started going off. I thought you said in another thread that those 4 "top black belt students" were actually 3 black belts and 1 brown belt, and at least one is a friend of yours. Couldn't you just ask them about Shou Shu then?

                        At this point, I think I set the probability of your story being true at about 10%... it's down there with the divinity of Christ and the Easter bunny for me. I'm sensing an ulterior motive with your derogatory representation of Shou Shu.

                        SIRC also supports Troy Miller whom Shifu Cook Shut up at the Aug WEC at the Palace.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          You know, I think every person has the right to choose what they like and what they don't like. And I think this website serves a great purpose as an area where people can separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, when it comes to martial arts.

                          But you know, not everyone that has an interest in martial arts is looking for UFC-style training. Some people want the mental toughness that comes from "old school" training. Some people want self-defense techniques for life-threatening situations. Some people want increased strength and dexterity.

                          I have a friend with a 7th degree black in jiu jitsu, who continues to insist that my fist won't hit him if he waves a hand in front of his face, despite the fact that my fist did in fact come in contact with his nose. Thankfully I know better than to look at my opponent's face. That school is loaded with jedi mind tricks and tradition. One of our white belts knocked this 7th degree "submission master" to the ground during a friendly sparring session.

                          Every form varies, each has its own strength... well, most anyway. I don't know about that "Extreme Martial Arts" crap I keep seeing on TV sponsored by Paul Mitchell where they ki AFTER their strike is extended. Whether you agree with the way Da Shifu Al Moore Jr. runs Shou Shu or not, its students gain a lot from the training.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Acira
                            You know, I think every person has the right to choose what they like and what they don't like. And I think this website serves a great purpose as an area where people can separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, when it comes to martial arts.

                            But you know, not everyone that has an interest in martial arts is looking for UFC-style training. Some people want the mental toughness that comes from "old school" training. Some people want self-defense techniques for life-threatening situations. Some people want increased strength and dexterity.

                            I have a friend with a 7th degree black in jiu jitsu, who continues to insist that my fist won't hit him if he waves a hand in front of his face, despite the fact that my fist did in fact come in contact with his nose. Thankfully I know better than to look at my opponent's face. That school is loaded with jedi mind tricks and tradition. One of our white belts knocked this 7th degree "submission master" to the ground during a friendly sparring session.

                            Every form varies, each has its own strength... well, most anyway. I don't know about that "Extreme Martial Arts" crap I keep seeing on TV sponsored by Paul Mitchell where they ki AFTER their strike is extended. Whether you agree with the way Da Shifu Al Moore Jr. runs Shou Shu or not, its students gain a lot from the training.

                            very well said

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Over the past couple of years I've heard lots of Shou Shu guys say things to the effect that it's good against multiple opponents. That's quite a claim in my book and, together with the apparent cultism, my main reason for interest. If there is a style that's 'good' against multiple opponents, that's like golddust. claiming it is good against multiple opponents if it isn't, is serious Bullshidoism IMO. Here are a few examples of this claim:

                              1. from this thread:
                              Originally posted by mantis1997
                              very aggressive style very easy to learn not long on forms very practical good against multiple opponents, weapons etc....
                              2. From www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com
                              Blue Belt: When you reach the high blue belt level. You will be moving 3-5 time faster then you can now and willl able to defend yourself against 2-3 peple at the same time.
                              3. From a MAP thread http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...t=13985&page=1
                              why is it so hard for you trained martial artist to accept that in shou shu you can take on multiple oppentents(6plus or whatever) and win? you keep saying prove it, how exactly would you like us to prove to you over the web? why do you have a problem believeing that?
                              4. From another of the many MAP threads http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...t=11369&page=1
                              i'm pretty confident i could handle 8 10 however many attack. it doesn't matter, just have alot of body bags ready with tags that say, "remains unviewable"! a shou shu blue belt is as good if not much better than any blackbelt in any other system. i'll bet good money u could take on at least 4 to 6 at the same time...... salute
                              N.b. on the last, the poster is Shifu Tiger..... who is the same Shifu Tiger posting here at the moment(?).

                              So, is it a bullshit claim? I reckon so. I recall videos being posted on MAP and Tung-Fu (can't find them) which showed very dubious multiple opponent demos.
                              You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
                              FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

                              just die already.
                              Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


                              Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
                              Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Kickcatcher,

                                I've seen sparring situations that have pretty well convinced me that a skilled shou shuer could take on multiple opponents. These scenarios did not involve the attackers taking turns or throwing useless punches, by the way.

                                However, I don't think I could take on multiple opponents.

                                Comment

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