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  • Ronin
    replied
    Originally posted by Kistrael
    Because God can never steer you wrong, even if he tells you to kill members of the family.

    :evil4:

    Leave a comment:


  • (Unconfirmed)
    replied
    Originally posted by Jekyll
    I dont understand this. Presumably you wouldnt blame your god if you got your arse kicked, so why thank him if you don't?
    I guess I attribute that to "be thankful in everything" part of my faith. Not saying I'd be like "Thanks God for letting me get owned" if I lose. If I lose I'd just try to see why it happened and be thankful for the learning experience.

    Hope that kind of make sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kistrael
    replied
    Originally posted by Jekyll
    I dont understand this. Presumably you wouldnt blame your god if you got your arse kicked, so why thank him if you don't?
    Because God can never steer you wrong, even if he tells you to kill members of the family.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jekyll
    replied
    Originally posted by (Unconfirmed)
    3) Send a simple thanks to God for not getting my @$$ kicked.
    I dont understand this. Presumably you wouldnt blame your god if you got your arse kicked, so why thank him if you don't?

    Leave a comment:


  • (Unconfirmed)
    replied
    Originally posted by shadowcat
    i am atheist and i can tolerate other religions. i just don't feel that they should be pushed on me.
    I concur. As a Christian, I don't think it should be pushed on you (or anyone) either.

    I guess for me, me being a Christian and a martial artist really just translates into three things: 1) Train hard as hell, 2) If anyone attacks my family/friends in an unprovoked manner; hurt them. 3) Send a simple thanks to God for not getting my @$$ kicked. I just think Biblical Christianity is something very personal. Yeah, there's a communal part, but I don't think that should translate into "Christian Martial Arts".

    Anyways thats my two cents. If I just repeated myself, My bad.

    BTW, I need some of you guys (fighters) to advise me on something. Should I start a new thread or can I ask it here? (Yeah I'm new here)

    Leave a comment:


  • Ronin
    replied
    Here is the thing, when training a MA, a fighting MA, you must instill soem sense of responsibility, unfortunatly for some, they equate that with religion and spirituality instead of common sense.

    Yes, there were warrior monks, all over the world as a matter of fact.

    But they were the exception, not the rule.

    MA were created for self preservection, for military use, for fighting.

    The fact that some asswipes did MA and were monks means shit.

    The fact that some people decided to mix religion/spiritualiy with MA has NOTHING to do with the reason MA were created.

    Like I have always said, there is NOTHING spiritual about kicking someone in the groin.

    Leave a comment:


  • shadowcat
    replied
    i can admit, when i started the "other" thread i wasn't intending to cause all the stupid comments that spewed from people's mouths....er....keyboards.

    anyway, i was just saying that i don't feel as though religion and martial arts should be as mixed as in some of these schools. you can have any kind of a mcdojo you want, whether it is catholic, christian, alien-worshipping or what have you. i mean, if people want to participate in that, it's their choice solely. BUT is the student really understanding the true meaning and absorbing the benefits of a traditional art? one can say it all depends on the dojo or the sensei, but a good chunk of these dojos require studying verses from the bible and knowing them, even reciting them at the end of some classes. i think martial arts should be martial arts. if people want to pray afterwards, that's great. but my question is should we mix the two this closely?
    i have a problem with going to nationals in NC and having to hear a prayer in the name of jesus christ. the thing is- the host dojo wasn't a christian dojo. i still don't understand who gave them the go-ahead in giving that prayer. i am atheist and i can tolerate other religions. i just don't feel that they should be pushed on me.

    Leave a comment:


  • G.R. Bug
    replied
    Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
    Exactly.

    I wouldn't agree that a majority of experienced instructors would need to "start over" and get credibility from other schools. Because chances are, they've already spent some time there, or have more than that "passing familiarity" that you speak of. And in some associations, higher level instructors are actually encouraged to get out of their area of "expertise" and go train in a different art, with the goal not necessarily being "Go get a black belt in something, " but instead to gain that "more than a passing familiarity."

    Now whether every instructor follows these instructions implicitly and honestly is a whole different discussion, but good instructors do in fact do this.

    However.

    While I've known instructors that, for themselves, fight hard, train hard, have been in the rougher/tougher era, have more than a passing familiarity in more than one art... that instructor's school still doesn't teach that way at all. None of it.

    Why?

    It's simply not good business.

    We can discuss the pure virtues of hard sparring, having a proficient striking and ground game, and why the common person coming into a dojang doesn't actually learn real self-defence skills to we're blue in the face. But good business practice shows that it's very difficult to make money AND keep your students if you teach "the real thing." The real thing was what led to rivalries, people splitting off, broken noses, injuries, fewer students, rougher students, blah blah blah. Granted, today's stuff causes the same stuff, sans the violence.

    Even in the traditional schools that I have and still occasionally get a chance to train at, sparring gear becomes mandatory, or sparring becomes less and less and less the focus of the curriculum. And the sparring was never that "hard" to begin with. Control is cool. Doing the controlled stuff is cool. I think it's less than wise to have your average students, the ones that aren't really looking to become macho tough fighters, spar heavy and hard all the time. That's not what they came in the door for in the first place, even if they pay lip service to it.

    But business practice suggests that light to no sparring ever is ideal, and with protection and a 'qualified supervisor' at all times. The more students and the more public you are, the more you have to worry about lawsuits, or so the instructors say. And these are the "tough guys" talking. When you base your school around that, you get the women and the children coming through the door as well (not to say that women are not tough -- that's not true).

    But anyway, it is a correct assumption to say that the "younger" generations such as myself would essentially need to start over if they ever wanted to say anything regarding "My school teaches ground fighting too." Some instructors that teach TKD/TSD of my generation or a little older have indeed done that. Many have not (including myself, but I don't instruct so no harm done).
    Good post.

    Here's a slightly different view, maybe a little too idealistic:

    I see two options that could be taken by TMA old-timers (primarily karate-do and TKD people) who have decided that their methods are lacking.

    First, they can just teach TMA as a cultural practice and self-improvement method -- which of course is what some hard-line traditional TMA'ers have always insisted about the "do" arts. All the instructor has to do is tell his/her students explicitly and frequently "no matter what you may have heard, this is not a self-defense art" and avoid saying or doing anything to contradict that message.

    The second option is to quit teaching, either temporarily or permanently, and pursue another art that's more effective for self-defense. Hey, life is full of disappointments and lane changes. Wouldn't you feel a lot of respect for the fictitious Grandmaster Kim if he closed his school for five or ten years, did a ton of supplemental training, and then re-opened the school with a different focus? I would.

    Leave a comment:


  • shinbushi
    replied
    Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
    The real thing was what led to rivalries, people splitting off, broken noses, injuries, fewer students, rougher students, blah blah blah. Granted, today's stuff causes the same stuff, sans the violence.
    The Straigt Blast Gym has proven that not to be true. You can teach the real thing and be profitable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doctor Shaft
    replied
    Yeah, don't get discouraged by the baiting around here. I'm not an experienced member by any means, but so far I've observed that there is occasionally a flood of over-reaction to a situation, where people have an agenda other than discussing the actual topic at hand, but after all of that is said and done, discussion usually resumes onto the topics we all came here to discuss.

    The other thread did skyrocket into something that had little or nothing to do with karate and religious ideology being tied together, but it seems to have resuscitated in the last few pages.

    But yeah, don't worry. There's plenty of people who are not religious, and there are groups of people who are. You might get drowned out occasionally, but mature discussion seems to be the rule of thumb here.

    Leave a comment:


  • (Unconfirmed)
    replied
    Wow. Guys, thanks for this thread.
    I actually just started looking at this site a few days ago and I was really impressed at the integrity of it (exposing B.S. and promoting what is effective). My reaction was something in between "Hey! They're into what I want to get into!" and "Ummm.. That kinda sounds like my current MA instructor. *embarrassed grin*". To sum it up, I really like this site..
    Yesterday I stumbled on the Christian Karate thread in which everyone was basically like "Christians are bigots/idiots/responsible for all kinds of atrocities and God sucks and they shouldn't practice MA at all" and I got discouraged..

    Yeah, I'm a Christian (non Catholic). And not just a nominal one.

    I respect people's right to believe what they deem true and to even reject what I believe as false. People should be allowed to respectfully disagree. But in that other thread, well it just got to the point where I felt kinda dissed by alot of the comments, that went beyond disagreement to just blatant attacks that had little to do with MA. I was just about to say "Well, I guess bullshido.com isn't really for me", but then I saw this thread.

    I'm glad that there are some members of this site that will put aside their dissagreement with the Christian Faith to objectively talk about the content of their fighting style and offer positive (but honest) criticism. I think that's cool.

    Anyways, I'm not a member of Christian Karate, but I do consider myself somewhat of a martial artist and I wouldn't mind being included in the discussion about incorporating faith/philosophy in the practice of Martial Arts.

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doctor Shaft
    replied
    However, those with 20 or more years experience were probably training back when the game was ruffer. They also probably got around to having a lot of hard contact experience and, while not the most competant boxers, probably have better head defense than TKDists who have only known the olympic rules.
    Exactly.

    I wouldn't agree that a majority of experienced instructors would need to "start over" and get credibility from other schools. Because chances are, they've already spent some time there, or have more than that "passing familiarity" that you speak of. And in some associations, higher level instructors are actually encouraged to get out of their area of "expertise" and go train in a different art, with the goal not necessarily being "Go get a black belt in something, " but instead to gain that "more than a passing familiarity."

    Now whether every instructor follows these instructions implicitly and honestly is a whole different discussion, but good instructors do in fact do this.

    However.

    While I've known instructors that, for themselves, fight hard, train hard, have been in the rougher/tougher era, have more than a passing familiarity in more than one art... that instructor's school still doesn't teach that way at all. None of it.

    Why?

    It's simply not good business.

    We can discuss the pure virtues of hard sparring, having a proficient striking and ground game, and why the common person coming into a dojang doesn't actually learn real self-defence skills to we're blue in the face. But good business practice shows that it's very difficult to make money AND keep your students if you teach "the real thing." The real thing was what led to rivalries, people splitting off, broken noses, injuries, fewer students, rougher students, blah blah blah. Granted, today's stuff causes the same stuff, sans the violence.

    Even in the traditional schools that I have and still occasionally get a chance to train at, sparring gear becomes mandatory, or sparring becomes less and less and less the focus of the curriculum. And the sparring was never that "hard" to begin with. Control is cool. Doing the controlled stuff is cool. I think it's less than wise to have your average students, the ones that aren't really looking to become macho tough fighters, spar heavy and hard all the time. That's not what they came in the door for in the first place, even if they pay lip service to it.

    But business practice suggests that light to no sparring ever is ideal, and with protection and a 'qualified supervisor' at all times. The more students and the more public you are, the more you have to worry about lawsuits, or so the instructors say. And these are the "tough guys" talking. When you base your school around that, you get the women and the children coming through the door as well (not to say that women are not tough -- that's not true).

    But anyway, it is a correct assumption to say that the "younger" generations such as myself would essentially need to start over if they ever wanted to say anything regarding "My school teaches ground fighting too." Some instructors that teach TKD/TSD of my generation or a little older have indeed done that. Many have not (including myself, but I don't instruct so no harm done).

    Anyway, I think the Christian Karate schools really don't incorporate "Jesus" or Christianity into their art that much at all. I've heard of schools like this before the website stuff was shown, so isn't really a new concept. I think the primary thing is just that it's like any ole MA school, except it professes a faith (something MA schools traditionally don't do at all), and hence caters and advertises too those who would otherwise not associate themselves or pursue a hobby that didn't have "christian" marked all over it. I could be wrong though.

    Some dojos like to push more than just the physical aspect. Their aiming towards creating "better" or empowered individuals, rather than "good fighters." (NOTE: not claiming other approaches to training don't do the same thing). The Christian Karate thing could just be an extension of that.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrSmith
    replied
    For instance: back when I used to do Hokutoryu Jujutsu we sometimes had a BJJ guy (or some other 'expert' - I fail to remember) come in to teach us and work on our ground game. The two clubs were sort of affiliates but still.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrSmith
    replied
    There's always the possibility of synergy in the sense of visiting senseis/coaches/trainers. For instance, financially there's hardly any harm in exchanging lessons for instance. Have a local - is possible, of course - wrestling coach to come in once every two weeks to give a lesson. Have your own sensei/whatever visit their gym to give a taste of the oriental in return. First of all, exposing students to different kinds and approaches to teh marital arties is always beneficial and both parties might actually benefit from such an exchange studentbodywise.

    Of course, whether or not a local kickboxing (for example) teacher wants to exchange lessons with a McDojo of any sort is a different question altogether.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry_Sizzler
    replied
    >>but those instructors who are not suitibly experienced to teach "reality" should get themselves schooled in it before teaching it. in the meantime they need to radically alter the messages they're giving their students re SD. IMO.

    exactly. satori makes a great point: "on what authority are they now teaching these techniques?" and like kickcatcher said, they need to tell their students the whole story. honesty goes a long way.

    staying with the tkd instructor example, what would be the problem with opening up the training environment to include groundwork? if the instructor makes it clear to the students that it's necessary for sd, that he's only a beginner himself, that he encourages them to find a competent instructor, but the mat's open for students to roll, do you think that would be irresponsible? he's admittedly not a competent instructor, and there's perhaps an increased risk of injury, but it seems like a step in the right direction.

    Leave a comment:

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