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    An RBSD paradox?

    First, thanks to everyone helping me out with the search for an NYC BJJ school a few months ago. If anyone wants to hear the story of how that went, let me know (otherwise I won't waste the space).

    I've enjoyed reading Bullshido (as has my roomate) and have naturally been caught up in some of the debates about some of the oddities in the martial arts world.

    ------------
    For the rest of this, I'm assuming that RBSD practitioners train first and foremost for the practical skill of surviving a violent confrontation first, and for fun and enjoyment second (I know, I know....it's not always the case). I'm also assuming the RBSD practioner goes to the average number of classes as any MAist on an ongoing basis, not just a weekend seminar.

    Something that always strikes me about reading about RBSD is the common saying of "survival at any costs". This implies a value judgement - that your life is so valuable, any tactic can be justified in protecting it. Thus there is a permium on extending one's life - my life is so valuable, I will kill you if you try to take it from me. Thus, sitting atop the RBSD heirarchy of values, is the maintenance of their own life.

    However, I was struck by the massive amounts of resources (both the opportunity cost of the time spend training, which is substantial, and the monetary value of training spent) that an RBSDer spends on training splashing around with fake blood, engaging in "sitation drills", and god knows whatever else.

    Is spending all of that time on "survival" really efficient?

    Here, from the Center for Disease Control in 2002, are the top ten leading causes of death in the United States:

    1. Heart
    Disease
    696,947

    2. Malignant
    Neoplasms
    557,271

    3. Cerebro-
    vascular
    162,672

    4. Chronic Low.
    Respiratory
    Disease
    124,816

    5. Unintentional
    Injury
    106,742

    6. Diabetes
    Mellitus
    73,249

    7. Influenza
    & Pneumonia
    65,681

    8. Alzheimer's
    Disease
    58,866

    9. Nephritis
    40,974

    10. Septicemia
    33,865

    Notably, homicide is not in the top 10. In fact, homicide is below suicide (#11) at #14, with a miniscule 17,638 deaths.

    You're more likely to die of the flu than be murdered. You're more likely to kill yourself than be murdered. And you're vastly, vastly more likely to die of heart disease than be murdered.

    Thus, is it really efficient to spend 8 hours a week on what is essentially murder-prevention training? If the RBSD guys were honest about all of the "survival at any cost" shit, shouldn't they take those 8 hours and try and workout and educate themselves about heart disease, take defensive driving classes, or try and prevent any of the causes of death that they are far more likely to fall prey to? You might as well put up that meteor shield over your house you've been wanting to build - applying the batshit crazy RBSD rationale, it makes as much sense.

    If your ife is so valuable, maybe you should put down the fake gun and get on the fucking stairmaster instead and stop being such a hyopcrite.


    So either RBSD really is just done for fun and enjoyment yet no one wants to admit this (not likely), or there is an alternative reason why a segment (extremely small, granted) of the population grossly, grossly overestimates the likelihood that they will be murdered.

    Because RBSD practitioners more resemble people with severe phobias, not martial artists.

    From dictionary.com for Phobia
    "A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation . . . "

    On phobia treatment:
    "[The individual is not likely to encounter the root of his phoba naturally], so behavior therapy sets up phobic treatment involving exposure to the phobic stimulus in a safe and controlled setting. Foa and Kozak (1986) call this exposure treatment, so called because the patient is exposed to the phobic stimulus as part of the therapeutic process. One simple form of exposure treatment is that of flooding, where the person is immersed in the fear reflex until the fear itself fades away."

    Doesn't this sound like RBSD training?

    In conclusion, it's hard to argue that training for anything other than personal enjoyment makes much sense, which runs counter to the RBSD party line. If not, it makes as much sense as trying to convince me that I need to train to protect myself against snakes, spiders, elevators, airplanes, clowns, Darth Vader, Omega, or anything else that irrationally frightens people. I don't share your irrational, daffy hysterics; don't thrust your phobias on me.
    --------------
    Last edited by Utah; 7/18/2005 5:39pm, .

    #2
    Nice little article. I agree, getting murdered is not a high likelihood, but the possability exists. The training is not useless, even if it is a bit irrational and fear-based. Not to stick up for RBSDers, because I hate RBSD as much as the next Bullshidoka, but you might want to mention what is below murder on the list too. I'd be interested in seeing what is less likely than murder.

    Comment


      #3
      The funny part is that you could argue that MMA training is more effective because it helps your cardiovascular system, and helps protect you from heart disease.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Apostol
        The funny part is that you could argue that MMA training is more effective because it helps your cardiovascular system, and helps protect you from heart disease.

        I was about to say that.

        MMA guys= regular exercise, that can be pretty intense at times.

        RBSD guy= Generaly out of shape and a class barely qualifies as exercise.

        Perkins vs Randy Couture. :dontknow:
        ______
        Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

        RIP SOLDIER

        Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
        -Gene, GODHAND

        You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
        The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
        -Daniel Tosh

        Comment


          #5
          lol. Great article. Well thought out.
          I have a confession. I'm an RBSD guy. My MMA activities are pretty casual.

          I frequent some boards where the "typical" RBSD guru seems to be a paronoid twat who thinks that cashpoint machines are deathtraps and that you should be prepared to use deadly farce whenever someone assaults you, or worse still "what if they're going to rape your daughter? What then????" It's all bollox. RBSD is just SD but realistic content not those twisty wristy party tricks -at least that's how I see it.

          The "defend at all costs" mentality is where the err lies. It simply isn't relevant to the vast majority of self-defence situations, it's a hypothetical whatif which applies only in the most horrific circumstances and the best form of defence is to not be there (as ever, oft preached, rarely applied). RBSD has to have a sliding scale.

          The greater paradox, and this is where the prodominant British flavour of RBSD (BCA/SDF) differs from our Amnerican counterparts (Phil et al gun nuts), is that learning to defend yourself once it does get violent, requires pressure testing and alive training. So the weakest element of society, the ones who moreso need RBSD, are the ones least able/willing to do it. That is why bullshit artists selling magic beans have their market. Rant rant...
          You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
          FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

          just die already.
          Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


          Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
          Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/

          Comment


            #6
            To be completely fair, it's very unlikely to drown to death in a pool, yet that's no reason to not learn to swim.

            Comment


              #7
              Just to play Devil's Advocate I wonder what the figures are on likelyhood of being a victim of violent crime. That seems to be the door buzz phrase for RSBD type schools "Don't let violence happen to you!!!"

              I myself realize that I'm probably not (see never) going to get in a stick on stick fight in real life. I do FMA because I love it, I do study the empty hand game and it's a hell of alot easier to keep in shape doing something you love than something you hate (ie. *having* to go to the gym.)

              I have to admit it is telling how we're about 3+ times more likely to die of the Flu.

              my two cents

              -Brian

              Comment


                #8
                What really kills me about some of RSBD groups is that they live in demographics were violent crime isn't an issue.
                ______
                Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                RIP SOLDIER

                Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                -Gene, GODHAND

                You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                -Daniel Tosh

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Poofist
                  To be completely fair, it's very unlikely to drown to death in a pool, yet that's no reason to not learn to swim.
                  To be equally fair, more people probably learn how to swim for recreation than learn how to swim out of fear of drowning.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    To be equally fair, more people probably learn how to swim for recreation than learn how to swim out of fear of drowning.
                    Good point.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      "http://www.straightblastgym.com/problem.htm)


                      And by Paul Sharp of Straight Blast Gym:

                      Quote:
                      You can observe the same thing in the so-called street fighting or reality based corner of the combat sport world. Scared people that translate themselves into lethal killing machines by toting around numerous knives, sticks and assorted weapons. The thing that makes these individuals really dangerous? They are still acting out of fear driven behavior. Without any knowledge of the moral and legal ramifications brought about by their actions. The truth is, they will never overcome their fear because they never confront it. Never testing their skills so as to give themselves a realistic view of their abilities. The fear compounds as they know they are untested which leads them to avoid the testing process for fear of losing and the cycle never ends.- Paul Sharp (http://www.straightblastgym.com/street01.htm)
                      "

                      From the Pax FAQ.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        RBSD guys are always talking about the need to defend from surprise attacks, but the likelyood of you remembering and pulling off a 12-step reaction is far less likely than just doing what you can with real, tested MA skills. What about the average bar figtht, where the attacker not only telegraphs his intentions to fight but often stands there for a few seconds totally open to attack?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I honestly can't see how the RBSD can poo poo MMA (or "sport" fighting in general) because.

                          Pros greatly out weigh the cons. You learn to deal with violence and react under pressure. you learn to take a hit, usually several of them and respond. You learn how to actually apply techniques against soemone who is trying to do the same to you. You get in shape! The list goes on. But they fail to see this.
                          ______
                          Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                          RIP SOLDIER

                          Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                          -Gene, GODHAND

                          You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                          The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                          -Daniel Tosh

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by EVIL ASIA
                            I honestly can't see how the RBSD can poo poo MMA (or "sport" fighting in general) because.

                            Pros greatly out weigh the cons. You learn to deal with violence and react under pressure. you learn to take a hit, usually several of them and respond. You learn how to actually apply techniques against soemone who is trying to do the same to you. You get in shape! The list goes on. But they fail to see this.
                            THERE ARE NO RULES IN THE STREET!

                            The MMA/sport training teaches one to react and use actual effective techniques (bread and butter 1-2 combo) when attacked, but most people (those that I've talked to that bash MMA) feel that it would be better to "react" with lethal or "more effective" fight ending techniques. Yet none of the practice to react with those techniques under pressure. You fight how you train, so if you're training to stand there while your partner fires of a pre-determined strike so you can react with a killing blow...well I just hope those RBSD types are attacked by egotistical Billy-Jack thugs (I'm going to take this foot, and ..... )

                            Plus never training to fight beyond the 30 second mark (all fights end within seconds, not minutes) is doing wonders for their health, right? ;)
                            Jaguar's MMA record
                            pre Kung Fu and BJJ: 0-0-0
                            post Kung Fu and BJJ: 0-0-0 (BOO YAA!!)

                            We're number one! All others are number two or lower.
                            - The Sphinx (Mystery Men)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              "Yet none of the practice to react with those techniques under pressure."
                              Actually, I think the whole basis for RBSD is supposed to be this phrase, and they do focus on training under pressure. But, as has been pointed out, tying your arm behind your back and using stage blood and starting a fight undernieth a chair with a blindfold on and 3 guys attacking you, isn't really practical training. When are you ever going to get into that situation unless you live in prison or are in special forces or something?

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