Winjitsu.com's NINJA KIDS!!

[Wounded Ronin]

Whenever I feel down, I like to cheer myself up by running searches pertaining to ninjas on the internet. Tonight, I found Winjitsu.com's NINJA KIDS!!

http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/

It comes complete with it's kid-appropriate "warrior creed".

Wherever I am,
Anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
Everyone is happy I am there.

That's almost on par with the ninja wisdom that I read in the old Nintendo "Worlds of Power" Ninja Gaiden novel, where Ryu Hayabusa's father said,

When you're lost my son,
When hope becomes despair,
I'll send a star of deepest gold to let you know I'm there.

and

The spirit of the ninja flows deep, ready to refresh the thirsting soul.

Wow, that book really did have the power of the 80s. Man, winjitsu.com would be so much cooler if they just hosted a .pdf of that novel and told the kids to read it.

In any case, this web site has reminded me of when I practiced TKD, back when I was in third grade. Most of the kids in my old TKD class wanted to be like the ninja turtles.

Well, it dosen't get any better with the ninja kids. Except now they wanna be Naruto or something.



Ah, yes. The outdated, historical methodologies of assasination and sabotage...perfect for family fun!



You kind of have to wonder about why you'd teach something with that history and purpose to kids unless you were deliberately implementing some kind of self-mockage. I mean, what kind of shitty assasination technique is suitable for family fun?



OK, last thing. This is really funny, because it's another my-martial-art-has-a-bigger-penis-than-yours story. It's especially funny because it involves a shaolin monk, and it's usually the kungfu guys who tell the biggest stories about how some kungfu master defeated jujitsu/karate/judo/boxing/wrestling/whatever guys with such ease because he had the bow and arrow stance.

Of course, we know this story is false because Wong Kiew Kit claims that shaolin monks don't get tired, since they do chi kung. DUH!!!


EDIT: Also posting this as an article.

[Kistrael]

Winjitsu..., because, y'know...

...it, like, wins.

[MEGA JESUS-SAMA]

Ninja sword techniques were very unfamiliar to the samurai, who relied on a strict code of ethics for fighting with a sword.

This is really the only part of the page I read. I'd have to call bullshit on both claims. I can't see mystical ninja kenjutsu being any more different from what a samurai would know of than a school he hasn't come across (And really, that's what the mystical ninja kenjutsu would be), nor were too many samurai interested in the ethics around a fight. The only difference between a samurai fighting a samurai and a samurai fighting a ninja is that the ninja disadvantages himself with a shorter sword, according to this nut.

According to Ninja GrandMaster Masaaki Hatsumi, Ninja swords are shorter than the swords used by samurai. The reason for this was that a larger sword was often too big or heavy, making it difficult for the Ninja to run quickly or hide in small places.

Game point. Winner - the samurai.

[Lane]

Winjitsu..., because, y'know...

...it, like, wins.

Warrior Information Network, actually.

[Lane]

This is really the only part of the page I read. I'd have to call bullshit on both claims. I can't see mystical ninja kenjutsu being any more different from what a samurai would know of than a school he hasn't come across (And really, that's what the mystical ninja kenjutsu would be), nor were too many samurai interested in the ethics around a fight. The only difference between a samurai fighting a samurai and a samurai fighting a ninja is that the ninja disadvantages himself with a shorter sword, according to this nut.



Game point. Winner - the samurai.

First point -- Bujinkan kenjutsu comes from the Kukishin ryu mainly, which is a samurai school. The Togakure ryu (the only true ninjutsu school that is actively taught in the Bujinkan), has a method of kenjutsu that uses a much shorter sword because peasants were not allowed to carry the same swords as the samurai class. However, the method of kenjutsu isn't all that different. The swords of the Togakure ryu were notoriously lower quality, and so it could be taken as a given that their swords would not be as good of cutters as samurai blades. The method reflects this, and the sword is used more like a close-quarters weapon than a sword. However, these techniques don't resemble a kenjutsu ryuha in the slightest. They're more like "taijustu+sword," so the waza that use the Togakure sword are not taught until one already has a firm basis in taijutsu. It's a safe bet that most of the sword arts learned in a Bujinkan dojo come from the Kukishin (a samurai) school.

It's also dependent on the situation as to whether or not a shorter sword would be a disadvantage. Iai is quicker with a shorter blade, and in cramped conditions it becomes an advantage.

Winjutsu is limited in its value, and I say this as a member of the Bujinkan. Particularly, I found the kids section to be full of creative "retellings" of stories Hatsumi-sensei relates in his books and basically propaganda to get kids interested in the Bujinkan, though most dojo refuse to admit people under 18.

[Siphus]

What a retarded thread.

You kind of have to wonder about why you'd teach something with that history and purpose to kids unless you were deliberately implementing some kind of self-mockage. I mean, what kind of shitty assasination technique is suitable for family fun?

Uh... learning martial arts is bad for a kid? Since when? And when did assassination become part of the ninjutsu curricuulum?

OK, last thing. This is really funny, because it's another my-martial-art-has-a-bigger-penis-than-yours story. It's especially funny because it involves a shaolin monk, and it's usually the kungfu guys who tell the biggest stories about how some kungfu master defeated jujitsu/karate/judo/boxing/wrestling/whatever guys with such ease because he had the bow and arrow stance.

Its a known fact that Takamatsu sensei got into many fights, throughout china and japan. And I also dont remember anything that resembles a bow and arrows stance in the ciricuulum.

This is really the only part of the page I read. I'd have to call bullshit on both claims. I can't see mystical ninja kenjutsu being any more different from what a samurai would know of than a school he hasn't come across (And really, that's what the mystical ninja kenjutsu would be), nor were too many samurai interested in the ethics around a fight. The only difference between a samurai fighting a samurai and a samurai fighting a ninja is that the ninja disadvantages himself with a shorter sword, according to this nut.

Based on what? Are you saying that all the worlds soliders today know of all the other countries training? What about when the british attacked america, they "knew" how to shoot too didnt they? But guess wut, they still got their ass kicked. Plus they had "bigger" weapons too. A shorter sword is a disadvantage? Maybe. But considering ninja at the time had more weapons than just the sword, and the sword itself had hidden weapons in it, im sure its safe to say that the scales were a little more balanced. It wasnt ever a ninja vs a samurai anyways. But thats a whole other topic.

Game point. Winner - the samurai.

A quicker more effective and practical weapon is beaten by a slower and larger one? If you say so....


-------

All in all, ive seen better attempts at ninja insults on www.generic-website-that-makes-fun-of-ninjas.com

A horrible attempt, and I hope the time you spent masturbating to 5 year old ninja kids was worth the embarassment of looking like a jackass on a public forum.

[MEGA JESUS-SAMA]

First point -- Bujinkan kenjutsu comes from the Kukishin ryu mainly, which is a samurai school. The Togakure ryu (the only true ninjutsu school that is actively taught in the Bujinkan), has a method of kenjutsu that uses a much shorter sword because peasants were not allowed to carry the same swords as the samurai class. However, the method of kenjutsu isn't all that different. The swords of the Togakure ryu were notoriously lower quality, and so it could be taken as a given that their swords would not be as good of cutters as samurai blades. The method reflects this, and the sword is used more like a close-quarters weapon than a sword. However, these techniques don't resemble a kenjutsu ryuha in the slightest. They're more like "taijustu+sword," so the waza that use the Togakure sword are not taught until one already has a firm basis in taijutsu. It's a safe bet that most of the sword arts learned in a Bujinkan dojo come from the Kukishin (a samurai) school.

Thanks for the info.

It's also dependent on the situation as to whether or not a shorter sword would be a disadvantage. Iai is quicker with a shorter blade, and in cramped conditions it becomes an advantage.

Most swordsman carried a shouto for fighting indoors anyway. Otherwise, longer weapons usually equal teh win, at least to a point.

Based on what? Are you saying that all the worlds soliders today know of all the other countries training? What about when the british attacked america, they "knew" how to shoot too didnt they? But guess wut, they still got their ass kicked.

I never said that samurai knew everything from every other school ever. I said I didn't figure the sword techniques used by ninja could differ that drastically than those from other samurai. If anything, I'd worry most about a samurai who had the free time to practice all day.

And your analogy sucked. There's a huge difference between a personal duel and battle.

Plus they had "bigger" weapons too. A shorter sword is a disadvantage? Maybe. But considering ninja at the time had more weapons than just the sword, and the sword itself had hidden weapons in it, im sure its safe to say that the scales were a little more balanced.

"Ninja sword techniques were very unfamiliar to the samurai, who relied on a strict code of ethics for fighting with a sword" looks a lot like "a ninja with a sword could beat a samurai with a sword".

It wasnt ever a ninja vs a samurai anyways. But thats a whole other topic.

So a ninja never even had to defend himself against rounin bandits? In the history of Japan?

A quicker more effective and practical weapon is beaten by a slower and larger one? If you say so....

quicker =/ more effective and practical. A knife is faster than a sword, but that doesn't mean I'd be willing to tanto my way through class.

[Siphus]

Thanks for the info.



Most swordsman carried a shouto for fighting indoors anyway. Otherwise, longer weapons usually equal teh win, at least to a point.



I never said that samurai knew everything from every other school ever. I said I didn't figure the sword techniques used by ninja could differ that drastically than those from other samurai. If anything, I'd worry most about a samurai who had the free time to practice all day.

Thats where the ninjutsu part comes in. Ninja are not and will not ever be as good as samurai in a sword battle. Ninjutsu is about surviving, which is where the dirty tricks came into play.

And your analogy sucked. There's a huge difference between a personal duel and battle.

When did I say anything about a personal duel? The point I made was that strategy wins battles.

"Ninja sword techniques were very unfamiliar to the samurai, who relied on a strict code of ethics for fighting with a sword" looks a lot like "a ninja with a sword could beat a samurai with a sword".


So a ninja never even had to defend himself against rounin bandits? In the history of Japan?

Ah, so which one is it? A duel, or defending himself? A duel is a preset fight, where both participants are ready to engage in battle and know who and wut they are up against. 1 vs 1, similar to a ring fight now, cept.. well.. they died at the end. A ninja defending himself considted of throwing metsubushi and running away.

quicker =/ more effective and practical. A knife is faster than a sword, but that doesn't mean I'd be willing to tanto my way through class.

If the knife had blinding powder in the scabbard, and you had 5 extra trowing knives, other misc tools, and the immense training in disarming and surviving fights against armed and armored attackers, then yeah, u might have a good chance.

[Lane]

Generally, it could be taken as a given that the samurai would be better educated, better trained, and better armed than the ninja. Also, the samurai would have access to a better diet and healthier living conditions than the ninja. The ninja was no match for the samurai generally in fair combat. This is why ninjutsu techniques are rarely, if ever fair, and often rely on the advantage of superior numbers or superior familiarity with the terrain.

It's a modern myth that ninjutsu is a combat art. Ninjutsu, and especially ninpo, are not fighting arts. Taijutsu is a fighting art. Kenjutsu is a fighting art. Ninjutsu is more about how to outsmart and out-manuever your enemy. Instead of standing your ground and dueling that samurai chasing you, you'd just as easily rather throw some caltrops down in the road, hide in the bushes, and toss some explosives at him... if you were found out. Most ninjutsu techniques focus on you NOT being seen by the people you are spying on, and getting out of the territory without having to resort to combat.

And then, when you examine Togakure ryu techniques, you find that the techniques are usually a form of misdirection. For instance, you might fake high with a punch only to turn it into a stomp to the outside of someone's kneecap. It's meant for an inferior warrior to stand a fighting chance against a superior one by means of trickery and the use of "cheating aids" like blinding powder and hidden weapons.

So, when people brag about the fighting prowess of ninjutsu, they're terminally confused. There are lots of arts in the x-kans which are good fighting arts, but these are generally not the ninpo ryuha. The Kukishin ryu has excellent weapons training, and good grappling training. The Gyokko and Koto ryu focus on striking. Shinden Fudo ryu is a very tough and fast style that combines both dakentaijutsu and jutaijutsu, and the Takagi Yoshin ryu of jujutsu is supposedly the style used to train Imperial bodyguards. These schools make up the majority of the combat techniques you learn in the Bujinkan, not the Togakure ryu. The Togakure ryu is all about specialized weapons, trickery, strategy, and misdirection.

[Siphus]

oh, and ninja did fight on the battlefield. Against samurai.

[RobG]

Although not of the 'booj' anymore...I still have a few friends well known in the lineage....I date back to the early 80's of all this in america.
My taijutsu is rusty...but still I would like to offer a consideration, based on western sword arts.
The ninja-to (sword) was an inferior metal - and unlike the 3 foot long fine steel edge of the samurai (and not all samurai had such fine blades - but the shape was the same generally) - the blad was longer and curved...the ninja-to, shorter and straight. Maybe by what - about 12 inches or so? More or less?

In western sword combat - there was a huge assortment of blades used in different cultures and at different times in history. As travel became easier between established countries...techniques were exchanged...mostly at the cost of the original students life, but the witnesses learned. And the prevailing design of a sword changed (as did armour and battlefield)....eventually the broad sword (hacking and cutting crushing strikes) were replaced by a more curved form of blade. In some countries the form stayed straight but became lighter and shorter. In others, it became more curved- many countries where the use of cavalry reflect a curved blade preference - a saracyn (?) sword, a shashka from the cossacks, the cutlass - (even the cavalry sword of the civil war was curved), many others that used horses used curved blades - for you did not want to stick a guy and get caught up in his body as the horse was passing by. Could break your arm or wrist and lose the blade as well.

In later years, after the middle ages - the blades of europe became more thin and light. They widened and the hilt...and one could still cut or stab -- for both were useful against light armour...the heavy plate discarded due to the longbow. Mobility was the survival factor.

And as the age of the western sword drew to an end - the very straight and 4 sided sword became favored - and stabbing became the overwhelming move. It was - well - structurally faster and easier to use by a very mobile and illusive opponent.

Now, consider the difference between the swords and armaments of the samurai/soldier and the 'ninja' (which is a relatively recent term, I believe).

The samurai had wodden plate armour, the ninja - maybe chain mail, usually none. And since samurai pretty much trained to face samurai - I feel they wound up moving in an odd form of 'agreement' - cutting and slashing was the most efficient use of a long sword (though some stabbing was used - it was mostly - CUT the opponent down mindset). The 'ninja' had a sword that was not reliable in that way - and thier method was more based on mobility (leaving deception and supplementary weapons aside for a moment).
They relied more on a 'pushing' cut - identical to a stab motion. While the samurai usually used a drawing back cutting motion.

Its very different things.

In oreder to crash through and cut an armoured opponent - the overall movement was big. Think of the classic 'pear splitter' - a move that could cut a guy from crown to belly...big move, even with a 3 ft long razor blade.

'Ninja' used more a pushing cut/stabbing motion...which allowed for more of a structuraly fast attack.

They more stabbed an opponent than cut his arm off...the opposite of the samurai methods.

Strucurally faster....more mobile.
That was the success they had.

If looked into in comparison to the western sword methods evolution....I personally see an interesting paralell conclusion of efficiency, between the two.

Of course...I could be very wrong...it would not be the first time...but I figured I would just throw it out for consideration here.

[king of seals]

with the speed of a giant dragon

Giant creatures are extremely heavy and slow.

STFU.

[RobG]

Hey, King! Where did you get the pic of my sister?
LOL. MAybe I shouldnt ask a guy so talented in hunting pix down. "I did NOT have sex with that woman'...really I didnt. Bill and I agree on that - so if ya find and post that pic - I will deny it like a Clinton.

[MEGA JESUS-SAMA]

Thats where the ninjutsu part comes in. Ninja are not and will not ever be as good as samurai in a sword battle. Ninjutsu is about surviving, which is where the dirty tricks came into play.

Isn't ninjitsu about espionage or assassination or something? In fact, why are you trying to argue in favor of a fighting ninja if all they're going to do is run away? Why are you even trying to attribute any action to every ninja ever?

When did I say anything about a personal duel? The point I made was that strategy wins battles.

Strategists talented enough to overcome M-16s with longbows are pretty rare.

Ah, so which one is it? A duel, or defending himself?

-10 points for relating unrelated statements.

This is why ninjutsu techniques are rarely, if ever fair, and often rely on the advantage of superior numbers or superior familiarity with the terrain.

Don't you know anything? Ninja are the ones overcoming superior numbers with poison shuriken and blinding powder. And lasers! Zap!

Instead of standing your ground and dueling that samurai chasing you, you'd just as easily rather throw some caltrops down in the road, hide in the bushes, and toss some explosives at him... if you were found out. Most ninjutsu techniques focus on you NOT being seen by the people you are spying on, and getting out of the territory without having to resort to combat.

The problem I have with tales of both ninja and samurai is that both of them probably shit their pants and run away.

For instance, you might fake high with a punch only to turn it into a stomp to the outside of someone's kneecap

I'm trying to picture how you can get an overhead punch into a stomp without the victim realizing that you've raised your leg, but it's not working for me.

The ninja-to (sword) was an inferior metal - and unlike the 3 foot long fine steel edge of the samurai (and not all samurai had such fine blades - but the shape was the same generally) - the blad was longer and curved...the ninja-to, shorter and straight. Maybe by what - about 12 inches or so? More or less?

Did I mention that ninja swords didn't exist? I think I forgot to.

the heavy plate discarded due to the longbow.

Longbows weren't actually able to pierce plate armor.

The samurai had wodden plate armour, the ninja - maybe chain mail, usually none.

The Japanese never used wooden armor. I've seen coifs with just chainmail knitted to them, but no pure chainmail armor.

They more stabbed an opponent than cut his arm off...the opposite of the samurai methods.

I see this a lot, which is strange because most cuts seem to be geared towards cutting through the body. Hell, even in a good historical drama most of the characters die from cuts to the midsection.

[king of seals]

Hey, King! Where did you get the pic of my sister?
LOL. MAybe I shouldnt ask a guy so talented in hunting pix down. "I did NOT have sex with that woman'...really I didnt. Bill and I agree on that - so if ya find and post that pic - I will deny it like a Clinton.

Are you talking about my avatar?

If not, please provide a link...

EDIT: If a ninja-to was as good as a katana, ninjas wouldn't need to use sneaky tactics to overcome their opponents. Worse metal, shorter blade.