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What happened to jiu-jitsu? (not bjj)

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  • Freddy
    replied
    You know I heard the Kano Judo challenge was a myth (or at least in part a myth). Theres a site out there explaining.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gezere
    replied
    Originally posted by WarriorOfLuv
    Dude, you are a wealth of knowledge. I'm curious man, which arts do you study/have studied?
    Quite a bit. :new_smile

    Leave a comment:


  • Cullion
    replied
    Originally posted by BatRonin
    No sense in going from Judo to JJJ.
    IF the TaiChi school does San Shou, then they are a good bet to learn full-contact striking.

    IF you can just do the san shou training and not have to do the TaiChi, gor for it, what do you have to lose?

    Judo and San Shou is a great combo.
    Thanks for the advice Ronin. I can't make the Judo because it's a student club that seems to do a lot of their training when I'm at work. I am going to sample the San Shou soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • fanatical
    replied
    Originally posted by Hannibal
    Who cares who beat who 50 or 100 years ago ? Worry about the state of your training now.
    Holy shit. Despite the inherent flaw of this argument, the last sentence is what caught my eye. Hannibal, despite the regurgitation I see you do, this was perhaps without you knowing, a very good point.

    The state of JJJ for the general public is overwhelmingly not training very relevant for the people they are teaching. Judo does, and yet much of sport oriented Judo clubs don't either. But then again, I don't think Kano even wanted to create another martial art. He wanted a sport that everyone could enjoy, effectiveness of technique was a good focus, but Judo has since left out the effectiveness of the entire system in trading many "dangerous" throws and such for safer competition. Judo because of its popularity though hasn't lost too much because it's by far too widely spread to be in any danger of having to make serious compromize.

    JJJ is a fairly loose term. About as loose as "TMA" the way it's used nowadays. I think of it as the old schools who actually trace their actual lineage to preferably the time before Judo. However lots of modern JJ crop up that still call themselves JJJ. Many times it's just karate and Judo trained in a traditional manner. And this is where it's pretty hit and miss. There are JJ styles formed after the birth of Judo, German JJ styles are a good example, although I'd be hard pressed to name one. As Japan has always for some reason had a good relationship with Germany, and many JJ styles emigrated there. Styles like that kept evolving and still today picks up what they feel is efficient and useful for their style. Many can be a mix of Judo and kickboxing, some encorporate BJJ nowadays, making it very flexible, but still keeping the name JJ, without the actual lineage, but still. I'd agree, it could only be called that. How do you know if it sucks or not? Just by trying it out.

    You can like Ronin said, make training just as rough&tumble as you like, but some clubs will make this easier than others. Incidentally, anecdotes are usually not very welcome in discussion, but since it's fact.. Over here a prominent politician effectively foiled being raped by knowing JJ and effectively throwing and giving her attacker a ... rather hard time.

    The trick to finding a school that actually trains properly will be the biggest problem. I quoted Hannibal because he mentioned what got my little rant going. If there are "newbie" trainings and more advanced trainings for instance. Go to the most advanced first and take a look. Is what they're doing effective and/or alive? If not, then reconsider. Don't go to a newbie training in ANYTHING and just blow it off because you feel you're progressing too slowly. I hate when people judge styles off their beginners.

    I'm sure there was a point to this, but I lost it somewhere along the way..

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  • Ashura
    replied
    The word Judo was known before Kano was ever born. In the old days, behaving in a gentle way was said "to play Judo".


    As evil Asia states, Judo was regulary beaten by Fusen Ryu even if Judo's historians usually tend to forget it. Fusen Ryu did emphasize ground work or Ne Waza.

    To be totally honnest, it must said that the invicible Shiro Saigo had already been expelled from the Kodokan at the time of those fights. A little bit later, Ne Waza was incorporated in the Kodokan curriculum.


    http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html

    JuJutsu is still alive and lively no doubt about it. Weapons are often studied because some schools have created their "body techniques" or Tai Jutsu using as a basis the weaponery movements and strikes (Tai Sabaki, shomen, nanamen uchi and so on).

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  • WarriorOfLuv
    replied
    Originally posted by EVIL ASIA
    Just a couple of tidbits:

    Kodokan Judo did not win all its matches. It was beaten by Fusen Ryu and is were some of the newaza came from.

    Kano did not come up with the idea of Randori (nor did he come up with the term JUDO) Koryu schools did engage iin a practice called RAN in which they did free spar. However this practice died out for the majority after the Meiji Reformation. As we all know pple who train to apply their techs against resisting opponents have an advantage over those who don't. Also there is a lot of debate on whether Kano stacked the deck during his challenges.

    Koryu Jujutsu, Taijutsu, Kumiuchi, etc were very specialized. Since the battlefeild has changed many of them are not longer apt and thus are trained for tradition. However there are still effective techniques that can be found in many of them you just have to put them in context.
    Dude, you are a wealth of knowledge. I'm curious man, which arts do you study/have studied?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gezere
    replied
    Just a couple of tidbits:

    Kodokan Judo did not win all its matches. It was beaten by Fusen Ryu and is were some of the newaza came from.

    Kano did not come up with the idea of Randori (nor did he come up with the term JUDO) Koryu schools did engage iin a practice called RAN in which they did free spar. However this practice died out for the majority after the Meiji Reformation. As we all know pple who train to apply their techs against resisting opponents have an advantage over those who don't. Also there is a lot of debate on whether Kano stacked the deck during his challenges.

    Koryu Jujutsu, Taijutsu, Kumiuchi, etc were very specialized. Since the battlefeild has changed many of them are not longer apt and thus are trained for tradition. However there are still effective techniques that can be found in many of them you just have to put them in context.

    Leave a comment:


  • roly
    replied
    at our club, we do judo and japanese jiu jitsu (ju-jut-su) and karate at the same dojo, the theory is that you can throw and fall properly (judo) pull your punches and kicks properly (karate) then you can play the jiu jitsu which is basically "canned techniques" without too much resistance
    but as a lot of these can hurt a lot (at full resistance, a break or dislocation would probably happen VERY often) we basically play nice and have safety as a top priority, to be honest some of the things we train seem silly, but a lot of it is quite effective

    as i'm only in the lower grades of it, i cant really comment on the weapons side of the jiu jitsu, but watching the other guys, it looks great fun <-- is it common to have weapons training in jiu jitsu? we have sword, staff (bo?) knife, and defence against all kinds of things (bottle, hatchet, chain, stick, garotte etc)

    Leave a comment:


  • jwinch2
    replied
    Check out Mark Barlow also. Excellent Jujutsu guy who is doing alot to promote the art....

    Leave a comment:


  • Bosai1
    replied
    Check out Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu. Jujitsu is alive & well

    Leave a comment:


  • Ashura
    replied
    Many guys use the Word jujutsu as they use the word Judo, or Kick Boxing.

    JuJutsu is much more than simply that. We can compare the word JuJutsu with a word like car. Although everybody knows what a car is, you must reckognize that you have different brands, sizes, colours, motors and so on.

    This is the same with JuJutsu. Classical JuJutsu is not taught everywhere and in Europe, you do not even have 10 Dojo teaching genuine Koryu. Many teachers created their own JuJutsu by mixing Judo, Shotokan Karate and Aikido, they shake the whole thing and create "their jujutsu".

    I believe the situation is the same in North america as Koryu schools are traditionnaly quite closed and this is hard to get tuition from Koryu Senseis.

    The issue of effectiveness is totally irrelevant in koryu as people do practice to pass on the art, just for the pleasure would I say. Many Koryu refuse to reelaborate their technical curricula and are not looking for new students.

    When visiting a Koryu, the Sensei will often tell you: This is how we work, those are our teaching methods, this is a classical school take it or leave it. This is just as simple as that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yrkoon9
    replied
    I keep the old style JJJ in a small box at home. Under some books. People think they have the old traditional JJJ, or 'teh real JJ'. I laugh at them. They can't have it! I know this because I have it! And I won't be showing it around, or letting go of it anytime soon.

    PM if you have a good $$$ offer though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jekyll
    replied
    Originally posted by Cullion
    We have a very good student judo club that mostly trains during office hours.
    There are normally classes on saturdays and sundays as well as 6-8pm on a thursday which is a real arse for me as it clashes with tai chi.

    Leave a comment:


  • FighterJones
    replied
    Beneath Contempt, word, +rep this dude guys.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beneath Contempt
    replied
    Personally, I think there is some question of credibility when it comes to JJJ.

    Let's all accept that the Kodokan did teh beatdown on the JJJ schools back in 1886. The result was that Judo became the preminent JJ style in Japan, and was taught to the police blah blah blah. The net result of this was that JJJ was made effectively extinct in Japan. Why would anyone be training in the schools that had been publicly combat proven to be inferior? There are millions of judoka in Japan today, but very few traditional JJers (let's not count the aikido people as that is a later offshoot).

    So why is it that ouside of Japan (and let's not include Brazil), especially in the US and UK, there are so many JJJ schools? Why is it that they all seem to teach the same curriculum of two-step Judo with some added strikes?

    My own personal view, and one that has been discussed to death (but not agreed with) on judoinfo.com, is that JJJ is bogus, and the "darkside" of BJJ - in that Judo had two love children - BJJ and JJJ.

    BJJ is the distilled Judo - all the technique, minus the tradition, plus a different take on training methodology.

    JJJ is all the technique, plus extra bogus tradition, minus the revolutionary training methodology that Kano had conceived.

    The facts are that "real" pre-Judo JJJ was a military art, and always taught in the context of war. It wasn't "what you do if you're coming home from the bar, and a thug with a skinful of sake attacks you with a knife" - it was "what you do if your army of 10000 bushi is storming another Daimyo's army of 5,000's castle and you get your sword stuck in some dude. You have to hold some other samurai whilst you wait for someone else to come and stick a naginata in him."

    This is basically why JJJ clubs have such unusual practices and traditions - there is such a disconnection between what JJJ actually was, and what exists now, that the clubs have become little more than live-action role playing for neo-samurai wanabees.

    Leave a comment:

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