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What happened to jiu-jitsu? (not bjj)

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    #31
    Many guys use the Word jujutsu as they use the word Judo, or Kick Boxing.

    JuJutsu is much more than simply that. We can compare the word JuJutsu with a word like car. Although everybody knows what a car is, you must reckognize that you have different brands, sizes, colours, motors and so on.

    This is the same with JuJutsu. Classical JuJutsu is not taught everywhere and in Europe, you do not even have 10 Dojo teaching genuine Koryu. Many teachers created their own JuJutsu by mixing Judo, Shotokan Karate and Aikido, they shake the whole thing and create "their jujutsu".

    I believe the situation is the same in North america as Koryu schools are traditionnaly quite closed and this is hard to get tuition from Koryu Senseis.

    The issue of effectiveness is totally irrelevant in koryu as people do practice to pass on the art, just for the pleasure would I say. Many Koryu refuse to reelaborate their technical curricula and are not looking for new students.

    When visiting a Koryu, the Sensei will often tell you: This is how we work, those are our teaching methods, this is a classical school take it or leave it. This is just as simple as that.

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      #32
      Check out Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu. Jujitsu is alive & well

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        #33
        Check out Mark Barlow also. Excellent Jujutsu guy who is doing alot to promote the art....

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          #34
          at our club, we do judo and japanese jiu jitsu (ju-jut-su) and karate at the same dojo, the theory is that you can throw and fall properly (judo) pull your punches and kicks properly (karate) then you can play the jiu jitsu which is basically "canned techniques" without too much resistance
          but as a lot of these can hurt a lot (at full resistance, a break or dislocation would probably happen VERY often) we basically play nice and have safety as a top priority, to be honest some of the things we train seem silly, but a lot of it is quite effective

          as i'm only in the lower grades of it, i cant really comment on the weapons side of the jiu jitsu, but watching the other guys, it looks great fun <-- is it common to have weapons training in jiu jitsu? we have sword, staff (bo?) knife, and defence against all kinds of things (bottle, hatchet, chain, stick, garotte etc)

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            #35
            Just a couple of tidbits:

            Kodokan Judo did not win all its matches. It was beaten by Fusen Ryu and is were some of the newaza came from.

            Kano did not come up with the idea of Randori (nor did he come up with the term JUDO) Koryu schools did engage iin a practice called RAN in which they did free spar. However this practice died out for the majority after the Meiji Reformation. As we all know pple who train to apply their techs against resisting opponents have an advantage over those who don't. Also there is a lot of debate on whether Kano stacked the deck during his challenges.

            Koryu Jujutsu, Taijutsu, Kumiuchi, etc were very specialized. Since the battlefeild has changed many of them are not longer apt and thus are trained for tradition. However there are still effective techniques that can be found in many of them you just have to put them in context.
            ______
            Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

            RIP SOLDIER

            Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
            -Gene, GODHAND

            You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
            The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
            -Daniel Tosh

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              #36
              Originally posted by EVIL ASIA
              Just a couple of tidbits:

              Kodokan Judo did not win all its matches. It was beaten by Fusen Ryu and is were some of the newaza came from.

              Kano did not come up with the idea of Randori (nor did he come up with the term JUDO) Koryu schools did engage iin a practice called RAN in which they did free spar. However this practice died out for the majority after the Meiji Reformation. As we all know pple who train to apply their techs against resisting opponents have an advantage over those who don't. Also there is a lot of debate on whether Kano stacked the deck during his challenges.

              Koryu Jujutsu, Taijutsu, Kumiuchi, etc were very specialized. Since the battlefeild has changed many of them are not longer apt and thus are trained for tradition. However there are still effective techniques that can be found in many of them you just have to put them in context.
              Dude, you are a wealth of knowledge. I'm curious man, which arts do you study/have studied?

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                #37
                The word Judo was known before Kano was ever born. In the old days, behaving in a gentle way was said "to play Judo".


                As evil Asia states, Judo was regulary beaten by Fusen Ryu even if Judo's historians usually tend to forget it. Fusen Ryu did emphasize ground work or Ne Waza.

                To be totally honnest, it must said that the invicible Shiro Saigo had already been expelled from the Kodokan at the time of those fights. A little bit later, Ne Waza was incorporated in the Kodokan curriculum.


                http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html

                JuJutsu is still alive and lively no doubt about it. Weapons are often studied because some schools have created their "body techniques" or Tai Jutsu using as a basis the weaponery movements and strikes (Tai Sabaki, shomen, nanamen uchi and so on).

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Hannibal
                  Who cares who beat who 50 or 100 years ago ? Worry about the state of your training now.
                  Holy shit. Despite the inherent flaw of this argument, the last sentence is what caught my eye. Hannibal, despite the regurgitation I see you do, this was perhaps without you knowing, a very good point.

                  The state of JJJ for the general public is overwhelmingly not training very relevant for the people they are teaching. Judo does, and yet much of sport oriented Judo clubs don't either. But then again, I don't think Kano even wanted to create another martial art. He wanted a sport that everyone could enjoy, effectiveness of technique was a good focus, but Judo has since left out the effectiveness of the entire system in trading many "dangerous" throws and such for safer competition. Judo because of its popularity though hasn't lost too much because it's by far too widely spread to be in any danger of having to make serious compromize.

                  JJJ is a fairly loose term. About as loose as "TMA" the way it's used nowadays. I think of it as the old schools who actually trace their actual lineage to preferably the time before Judo. However lots of modern JJ crop up that still call themselves JJJ. Many times it's just karate and Judo trained in a traditional manner. And this is where it's pretty hit and miss. There are JJ styles formed after the birth of Judo, German JJ styles are a good example, although I'd be hard pressed to name one. As Japan has always for some reason had a good relationship with Germany, and many JJ styles emigrated there. Styles like that kept evolving and still today picks up what they feel is efficient and useful for their style. Many can be a mix of Judo and kickboxing, some encorporate BJJ nowadays, making it very flexible, but still keeping the name JJ, without the actual lineage, but still. I'd agree, it could only be called that. How do you know if it sucks or not? Just by trying it out.

                  You can like Ronin said, make training just as rough&tumble as you like, but some clubs will make this easier than others. Incidentally, anecdotes are usually not very welcome in discussion, but since it's fact.. Over here a prominent politician effectively foiled being raped by knowing JJ and effectively throwing and giving her attacker a ... rather hard time.

                  The trick to finding a school that actually trains properly will be the biggest problem. I quoted Hannibal because he mentioned what got my little rant going. If there are "newbie" trainings and more advanced trainings for instance. Go to the most advanced first and take a look. Is what they're doing effective and/or alive? If not, then reconsider. Don't go to a newbie training in ANYTHING and just blow it off because you feel you're progressing too slowly. I hate when people judge styles off their beginners.

                  I'm sure there was a point to this, but I lost it somewhere along the way..
                  More human than human is our motto.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by BatRonin
                    No sense in going from Judo to JJJ.
                    IF the TaiChi school does San Shou, then they are a good bet to learn full-contact striking.

                    IF you can just do the san shou training and not have to do the TaiChi, gor for it, what do you have to lose?

                    Judo and San Shou is a great combo.
                    Thanks for the advice Ronin. I can't make the Judo because it's a student club that seems to do a lot of their training when I'm at work. I am going to sample the San Shou soon.
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                      #40
                      Originally posted by WarriorOfLuv
                      Dude, you are a wealth of knowledge. I'm curious man, which arts do you study/have studied?
                      Quite a bit. :new_smile
                      ______
                      Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                      RIP SOLDIER

                      Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                      -Gene, GODHAND

                      You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                      The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                      -Daniel Tosh

                      Comment


                        #41
                        You know I heard the Kano Judo challenge was a myth (or at least in part a myth). Theres a site out there explaining.
                        Ghost of Charles Dickens

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