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What happened to jiu-jitsu? (not bjj)

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    #16
    JJJ becomes more effective if enka music is playing in the background.
    Lone Wolf McQuade Final Fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmrDe_mYUXg

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      #17
      Cullion, you typoed Jitsu Foundation.

      And seriously, their "resistance" is usually nothing like alive training. Saying the organisation also holds judo competitions that judoka participate in is disingenous; it's a competition held to a slightly strange version of judo rules (no naked chokes etc) which only Jitsu people participate in. Those who have cross-trained in judo naturally tend to do much better than those who have not.

      Conditioning and competition? Just... no. Competition in particular is restricted to a couple of events per year, one being the Atemi Nationals (think figure skating, the people who look best while coping with canned attacks win) and the pseudo-judo competition just mentioned.

      I seem to recall posting on this before last time you asked about them, and PMing you after. They exhibit all the standard flaws of "jujitsu" when it comes to training method, and if you're not seeing them it's because you're not experienced enough to realise what poor training methods look like. The strikes they throw for each other are.... well, laughable, really, huge haymakers and karate punches in which the striker takes his own balance. Then the hand is left extended, and no attempt is made to punch properly with the other hand. Learning throws like this gives very little that can be used on a resisting opponent, particularly as various judo techniques have been bastardised into versions that don't work as well (but "look" better). Ippon-seo-nage without straightening the legs, tai-otoshi without any real force being applied by the upper body... sparring would show these problems up brutally, but randori is rare. I've seen high grades of theirs sparring low judo grades, and jitsu stand-up grappling is simply inadequate; I'd hate to see them striking against a trained striker. Higher grades may have okay groundwork, but not for the length of time spent in the art.

      If you're not at all interested in self defence, and your aim is solely to get fit and expand your social circle, jitsu will do that for you to a degree (their conditioning is still vastly less than that of many a decent judo club). So would a lot of things that aren't martial arts, but if you get a kick out of putting on a gi and addressing brown belts as Sempai, go do it. But if self defence is an aim of yours, you need to be doing something that incorporates vastly more alive training.

      Edited to clarify that the sparring of jitsu guys vs judo guys I noticed was when some jitsu guys started cross-training judo; of course it didn't happen on a jitsu mat.
      Last edited by Sophist; 6/25/2005 9:43am, .

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        #18
        Originally posted by Sophist
        Cullion, you typoed Jitsu Foundation.

        And seriously, their "resistance" is usually nothing like alive training.
        The groundwork we did seemed resistant, but I am not an experienced grappler. We were told simply 'try and pin your opponent down', and each of my partners did indeed seem to do their best to pin me down.

        Saying the organisation also holds judo competitions that judoka participate in is disingenous; it's a competition held to a slightly strange version of judo rules (no naked chokes etc) which only Jitsu people participate in. Those who have cross-trained in judo naturally tend to do much better than those who have not.
        The 'judo' competitions are open to judoka who don't also train in jitsu, and I've been told that judoka enter (whether or not only judoka who cross-train in jitsu enter is something I don't know. You may well be right). The competitive grappling is segmented by grade as well as weight and gender, and the rules become less restrictive for higher grades.

        Conditioning and competition? Just... no. Competition in particular is restricted to a couple of events per year, one being the Atemi Nationals (think figure skating, the people who look best while coping with canned attacks win) and the pseudo-judo competition just mentioned.

        I seem to recall posting on this before last time you asked about them, and PMing you after.
        You did indeed, and your advice is much appreciated.
        I don't really know anything about the atemi nationals, so they might indeed suck.
        However, the choice of martial arts in Oxford is limited, so I went to try a class anyway. Some of the criticisms you mention are things I haven't seen happen at this particular club. See below.

        They exhibit all the standard flaws of "jujitsu" when it comes to training method, and if you're not seeing them it's because you're not experienced enough to realise what poor training methods look like.
        That could easily be the case. I have a couple of years experience in each of Judo (as a kid), TKD and WC, with smatterings of other things. I've never had the good fortune to live near a KK, MT, BJJ or full-contact kickboxing club, and when I did Judo it was in an all-childrens class.

        The strikes they throw for each other are.... well, laughable, really, huge haymakers and karate punches in which the striker takes his own balance.
        The striking I saw was all pulled in the drills, but I didn't see huge haymakers or deliberate lurching/overbalancing to help the throws along at this club.

        ... various judo techniques have been bastardised into versions that don't work as well (but "look" better). Ippon-seo-nage without straightening the legs, tai-otoshi without any real force being applied by the upper body... sparring would show these problems up brutally, but randori is rare.
        I haven't had enough lessons at this club yet to judge how rare randori is, nor whether throws have been deliberately messed with to make them 'pretty'.

        I've seen high grades of theirs sparring low judo grades, and jitsu stand-up grappling is simply inadequate; I'd hate to see them striking against a trained striker. Higher grades may have okay groundwork, but not for the length of time spent in the art.
        Hmm.. I'll keep my eyes open.

        If you're not at all interested in self defence, and your aim is solely to get fit and expand your social circle, jitsu will do that for you to a degree (their conditioning is still vastly less than that of many a decent judo club).
        I'm mostly interested in fitness, but I'll keep an eye out for the bad stuff you describe. The reason I'm giving it a chance is that my time and money budgets are limited, and there isn't much choice in Oxford (I still have to give Jekyll's tai chi club a look, I keep saying I'll go and then not having time). In particular, the judo club's training hours don't match my schedule very well, and I've been told I'm told old to take up amateur boxing. There's no BJJ, Sambo, MMA, KK, MT or full-contact kickboxing available that I know of, either. Were any of the arts in the list available, then I would definitely be checking them out.

        However, some of the bad things you describe don't seem to be happening at this club, yet. Maybe you had a bad experience with a particular school, or maybe it was a while ago, and they've improved their game by in light of developments due to MMA in martial arts training methods?

        As it is, I'm left with a choice of Jekylls tai chi club or Jitsu, unless anybody in the Oxford area knows better.. ?
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          #19
          Originally posted by Cullion
          As it is, I'm left with a choice of Jekylls tai chi club or Jitsu, unless anybody in the Oxford area knows better.. ?
          'Where are you striking?' 'The larynx, Sensei!' 'And what happens when you strike someone in the larynx?' 'They die, Sensei!' 'Well don't do it then!'
          - Phil Merchant and a dan, at the Nationals
          http://www.oxfordjitsu.co.uk/quotes....db0483a4d2348a

          :5zombie:

          I've met one of the senseis of the club and rolled with a couple of members at judo. Make yourself go to one of the judo or tai chi classes so you can see what the difference is. Sophist seems to be bang on the money with his comments.

          Originally posted by Stickx
          It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
          Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Jekyll

            I've met one of the senseis of the club and rolled with a couple of members at judo. Make yourself go to one of the judo or tai chi classes so you can see what the difference is. Sophist seems to be bang on the money with his comments.
            I will be coming to your tai chi place to check it out, but I won't promise when because I keep doing that and then missing it due to other committments. I'm sure the judo club is excellent, but their timetable doesn't fit with mine.
            !!RENT SPACE HERE FOR 10 VBUCKS PER LINE PER MONTH!!

            !! PM ME FOR SPEEDY SERVICE !!

            Sponsored by our first customer: Repulsive Monkey



            I <3 Sirc.

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              #21
              Cool. I don't mean to keep pushing it and I almost certainly won't be about.

              Originally posted by Stickx
              It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
              Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

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                #22
                Wholy crap I never realised how lucky I've been in finding instructors. I've studied karate, judo and ju jitsu non of which I've been in long enough to really make any great claims on but I read the post here and there and whan I got into bigger centers looked into other clubs and how they where training.What I've seen was laughable, In the past most of the people I've worked with have all had extensive milatary training and this all crossed over into how they teached their chosen form. When we sparded in karate our standing rule was no one goes to the hospital, if it went to the ground it went to the ground ( always had trouble at the point sparing touriments) our ju jitsu instructor was the same way. we did a lot of submission sparring and free sparing starting from a standing posission. Resently I've taken up judo ( mostly because of these Mcdojo that have sprung up) I should have joined the judo guys sooner but wasn't sure if I wanted to get invalved with another want a be club. After being jaded by the other clubs that where around my area I was hesatant But I'm now in the mix of the club and again former military instructor. What has any of this have to do with this thread well just that when we talk of the old styles of Jujitsu where the training was more stringent and not designed to be more public friendly I had trouble seeing the art being that much less friendly that it was. We worked hard trained hard and watch a lot of people pack it in after a couple of weeks. I now see that what I had found was not the norm but the hold outs. Clubs run by guys looking to maintain their fighting skills not really make any money off of it. Most of these clubs didn't collect does and non of them charged for test and the jujitsu club only charge to have your ranking registered with a natioal association ( optional if you really didn't care). I tihnk i liked my little nieve world where i believed all the other clubs trained harder than we did. Because when I learned the truth I was realy let down. Oh well just want evryone to know that there are still a few JJJ clubs that train for the real world ,,,, at least I hope.

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                  #23
                  In the end, instructors teahc what they WANT to teach OR what their students WANT to learn.
                  Every dojo I have been to has been "rough n tumble" but that is because that is what I am looking for.
                  The vast majority of people are happy being bullshited.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by BatRonin
                    In the end, instructors teahc what they WANT to teach OR what their students WANT to learn.
                    Every dojo I have been to has been "rough n tumble" but that is because that is what I am looking for.
                    The vast majority of people are happy being bullshited.
                    That's what I'm looking for too, but there must be a lot of people in my situation, i.e. those who would love to train in something alive, but simply can't find it where they live that also fits their work commitments.

                    We have a very good student judo club that mostly trains during office hours. We have no Kyokushin (unless you know better Ronin?, I'd love to give it a try). No MT or full-contact kickboxing. No BJJ, shooto or Sambo. I've been told I'm too old to get an amateur boxing licence, so the student boxing club won't have me.

                    We do have a shitload of kids-only judo clubs, non/semi-contact karate and TKD clubs, aikido, and over-priced non-sparring (or at least non-contact) CMA schools.

                    I'm left choosing between a JJJ school that does some alive randoori (but less than Judo) and Jekyll's tai chi club which producers san shou competitors (I've yet to try it).

                    Imagine living in a city where your best options were JJJ or Tai Chi ?
                    !!RENT SPACE HERE FOR 10 VBUCKS PER LINE PER MONTH!!

                    !! PM ME FOR SPEEDY SERVICE !!

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                    I <3 Sirc.

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                      #25
                      No sense in going from Judo to JJJ.
                      IF the TaiChi school does San Shou, then they are a good bet to learn full-contact striking.

                      IF you can just do the san shou training and not have to do the TaiChi, gor for it, what do you have to lose?

                      Judo and San Shou is a great combo.

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                        #26
                        The JJJ school I trained in 25+ years ago had a curriculum similiar to most Karate schools with punching kicking, sparring etc.. Throws, chokes however replaced kata. The training was effective enough for me to pull off throws in the street. So I would say it was real enough for me.

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                          #27
                          Personally, I think there is some question of credibility when it comes to JJJ.

                          Let's all accept that the Kodokan did teh beatdown on the JJJ schools back in 1886. The result was that Judo became the preminent JJ style in Japan, and was taught to the police blah blah blah. The net result of this was that JJJ was made effectively extinct in Japan. Why would anyone be training in the schools that had been publicly combat proven to be inferior? There are millions of judoka in Japan today, but very few traditional JJers (let's not count the aikido people as that is a later offshoot).

                          So why is it that ouside of Japan (and let's not include Brazil), especially in the US and UK, there are so many JJJ schools? Why is it that they all seem to teach the same curriculum of two-step Judo with some added strikes?

                          My own personal view, and one that has been discussed to death (but not agreed with) on judoinfo.com, is that JJJ is bogus, and the "darkside" of BJJ - in that Judo had two love children - BJJ and JJJ.

                          BJJ is the distilled Judo - all the technique, minus the tradition, plus a different take on training methodology.

                          JJJ is all the technique, plus extra bogus tradition, minus the revolutionary training methodology that Kano had conceived.

                          The facts are that "real" pre-Judo JJJ was a military art, and always taught in the context of war. It wasn't "what you do if you're coming home from the bar, and a thug with a skinful of sake attacks you with a knife" - it was "what you do if your army of 10000 bushi is storming another Daimyo's army of 5,000's castle and you get your sword stuck in some dude. You have to hold some other samurai whilst you wait for someone else to come and stick a naginata in him."

                          This is basically why JJJ clubs have such unusual practices and traditions - there is such a disconnection between what JJJ actually was, and what exists now, that the clubs have become little more than live-action role playing for neo-samurai wanabees.

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                            #28
                            Beneath Contempt, word, +rep this dude guys.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Cullion
                              We have a very good student judo club that mostly trains during office hours.
                              There are normally classes on saturdays and sundays as well as 6-8pm on a thursday which is a real arse for me as it clashes with tai chi.

                              Originally posted by Stickx
                              It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
                              Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

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                                #30
                                I keep the old style JJJ in a small box at home. Under some books. People think they have the old traditional JJJ, or 'teh real JJ'. I laugh at them. They can't have it! I know this because I have it! And I won't be showing it around, or letting go of it anytime soon.

                                PM if you have a good $$$ offer though.

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