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  • SifuAbel
    replied
    "I would say that I [probably] have more experience in TMA than nearly all of you."

    Unless you've done it for more than twenty years you can't hold that over me.

    The ultimate point here made by braden and Kc is that your theory on kung fu technique comes from video tape of a handfull of bouts that might go either way if you repeated them more than once, such as in MMa where people beat each other back and forth every month. And, the LESS than a handfull of bouts against what could have been the worst student in the school or a bad school.
    FC karate expalins your hate though. This has been brewing long before MMA. Karate has always been pumping its superiority complex for years.

    I know many "katas". How many are kungfu "katas"? It's amazing how you base your opinions of superiority on, not ours, your katas. If your katas stink don't blame us.

    Which techniques of kung fu that you have specifically studied don't work? Please expound on your vast knowledge. You haven't specifically studied kung fu techniques? Then how do you know what works?

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Well, I stand corrected. I had your responses confused with peedee's, my apology.

    Well, good luck on competing. I wasn't trying to say your teacher was not decent. I was more just trying to point out that, by that logic, any bjj/MMA fighter who does as well or worse in tournaments does not, by definition, stink at their art, or practice an art that is bankrupt. After all, a lot of good fighters go to these competitions, and they can't all win.

    However, I was rude, so I apologize. My mistake.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy Kaufman
    replied
    I wasn't using him as a posterboy, and my opinion is not immune to change, despite your assumption. As I said, I have respect for groundwork, which I didn't care for before. If your opinion is inflexible, please do not project that onto me.

    In any case, if only the top fighters matter for effectiveness, then that counts out what you and possibly your teachers do, unless they are the latest winners. In other words, if my kung fu is useless, then so is whatever you do, unless you won the last ufc, apparently.

    Also, I was not arguing style vs. style, you were the one bashing kung fu on some extremely limited experiences against people who didn't even spar kung fu full contact, so your opinion on this matter is not exactly well informed.
    i shouldn't have used the word poster boy. what i meant to say is he is not the best example.

    as far as argueing about styles, that comment was not directed at you. style vs style is a fruitless arguement. if i'm a karate guy and i think TKD sucks. 1 or 2 posts i read on the internet is not going to change my opinion. please find a post where i bash kung fu. you will not find one. i didn't want it to seems like i was posting on this thread to bash kung fu. my point was that joel sutton's record is not exactly impressive.

    i do plan on competing in MMA hopefully sometime next year when my ground game is better developed. i will not be competing in sport jiu-jitsu tournaments as i take bjj for self-defense. bjj for vale tudo is different than bbj for sport.

    as far as my instructor goes, i train at a royce gracie affiliate. i think his fight record is decent <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

    prior to studying bjj, my stlye was primarily traditional jiu-jitsu w/ some karate and chinese elements. what style/technique of "kung fu" (a broad non-descript term) it was, i could not tell you. i found a lot of the theories/techniques which deal w/ generating striking power & developing power from short distances very useful.







    Edited by - Andy Kaufman on July 26 2002 17:13:47

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  • Braden
    replied
    I don't think any of the kungfu guys here feel they need a posterboy.

    You suggested I was mistaken about an eight step guy winning two matches in UFC, so I backed up my claim.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    ..so what's your record, mister oh so critical?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I wasn't using him as a posterboy, and my opinion is not immune to change, despite your assumption. As I said, I have respect for groundwork, which I didn't care for before. If your opinion is inflexible, please do not project that onto me.

    In any case, if only the top fighters matter for effectiveness, then that counts out what you and possibly your teachers do, unless they are the latest winners. In other words, if my kung fu is useless, then so is whatever you do, unless you won the last ufc, apparently.

    Also, I was not arguing style vs. style, you were the one bashing kung fu on some extremely limited experiences against people who didn't even spar kung fu full contact, so your opinion on this matter is not exactly well informed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy Kaufman
    replied
    peedee,
    You speak on full contact, yet there's plenty of kung fu schools that do full contact. Plus you criticise Joel Sutton's techniques, yet cannot replicate his success.

    Basically, you just want to say kung fu doesn't work, and no matter how many Sutton's we put in front of you, you are going to base all your arguments on your experiences with one wing chun school.
    i'm not going to get involved w/ style vs style arguements. i'm apathetic toward what style people sitting behind their keyboard take. besides, it not like anyone's opinion is going to change.

    however, i wouldn't use john sutton as a poster boy for kung fu if i were you. his first win in the UFC was against jack mcglaughlin (0-3-0 record) by submission (strikes). his second win was to geza kalman due to a cut. unless sherdog's records are inaccurate, it looks as though he's lost every fight since then (1 pancrase, 3 vale tudo).



    Edited by - Andy Kaufman on July 26 2002 15:54:07

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  • Andy Kaufman
    replied
    i stand corrected. i never recalled a kung fu guy winning a UFC match.

    Name Joel Sutton
    Record 2 - 4 - 0
    Height 5'10 / 177.8 cm
    Weight 202 lbs / 92 kg
    Style Kung Fu
    Country USA



    http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/d...?fighterid=107

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    peedee,
    You speak on full contact, yet there's plenty of kung fu schools that do full contact. Plus you criticise Joel Sutton's techniques, yet cannot replicate his success. So who's art is questionable, yours or his?

    And what is focused on from a style is up to the practitioner to figure out. There are moves that my teacher does that aren't practical for me, due to the difference in our sizes, just as certain moves I do aren't as good for him.

    Thus far, I have seen all the moves from our forms used at one time or another in full contact sparring, with the exception of one elbow technique. While there are more techniques for me to learn, I still have seen quite a few in our system.

    Basically, you just want to say kung fu doesn't work, and no matter how many Sutton's we put in front of you, you are going to base all your arguments on your experiences with one wing chun school. Which is your prerogative.

    However, it also means that you are only putting forth hyperbole, and therefore, right or wrong, don't actually know what you are talking about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Braden
    replied
    PeedeeShaolin

    "Joel Sutton never used ANYTHING from Kung Fu in those fights."

    And you're using your extensive experience from 'full contact karate' and wing chun as proof that you know what eight step preying mantis is like?

    "...and then mounted his opponents. A technique not found in Kung Fu."

    Pinning someone and hitting them isn't in kungfu? I actually train in kungfu and I say otherwise.

    "But I also think they are surrounded by mythical CHI stories and USELESS techniques."

    The only people talking about chi in this thread so far have been MMA guys. The only people saying anyone advocates silly guard postures so far have been MMA guys.

    "But this is 2002."

    Ah, I see your point. It's 4:20 too, I think.

    "We have to start accepting that many of these techniques have NEVER been proven."

    What exactly are you talking about? It's not clear. Sounds convincing though, if I wasn't really paying attention.

    "I know many katas. I can perform a jump spinning crescent and tornado kick."

    Presumably none of this from your kungfu training, which makes the reader wonder why you brought it up.

    "It simply disturbs me that people WILLINGLY live in ignorance..."

    I couldn't agree more.

    Leave a comment:


  • PeedeeShaolin
    replied
    I studied Wing Chun and found its movements sorely lacking. I came from full contact karate and I could shut dowm much larger Kung Fu practitioners fairly easily. Im not saying that Im the man. I never say im better than ANYONE. But my FIGHTING was much better than these people. Partly because I trained full contact and they did not.

    Joel Sutton never used ANYTHING from Kung Fu in those fights. He flailed his hands like he was having an epileptic siezure and then mounted his opponents. A technique not found in Kung Fu.

    I think there are SOME parts of Kung Fu that are applicable. But I also think they are surrounded by mythical CHI stories and USELESS techniques. What happens next is the techniques that DO work are not FOCUSED on like they should be.

    People seem to think im against traditional martial art. Im not. I would say that I pobably have more experience in TMA than nearly all of you. But this is 2002. We have to start accepting that many of these techniques have NEVER been proven. They DO NOT WORK.

    They may be fun, they may work your body, they may teach you about the history behind your art, but yoyu CANNOT use them to defend yourself. I have no problem with people practicing these movements at all. But they should be aware of the impracdticality of these techniques and have the CHOICE to practice them, or to ignore them and practice something that might help to protect them someday.

    I know many katas. I can perform a jump spinning crescent and tornado kick. I can break boards and bricks, and yes, I have meditated many times in my martial arts career.

    It simply disturbs me that people WILLINGLY live in ignorance of truth and then SPREAD that ignorance to others even tho it may cause them to be hurt someday because of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Braden
    replied
    I really don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • SDriver
    replied
    Braden,

    I'm curious, because I was asking about something like this on another board. I don't remember the Sutton fights, and I don't own any UFC tapes.

    Does anyone know if what Joel Sutton did in the ring looked anything like the kung fu he claimed to practice? We all know about "wing chun" and "aikido" guys whose ring styles are reminiscent of Special Olympics Toughman comps. We've also seen the Boztepe/Cheung, um, donnybrook.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Hehehe.

    How many have you won, Andy? Probably same as me, and seeing as I don't participate in nhb, and you lived by it in your last statement, I guess I'm the only one of the two of us who doesn't need to step back and eat a little humble pie, kung fu style.

    Just flippin' ya shit, don't take it personally.

    Leave a comment:


  • Braden
    replied
    Joel Sutton.

    UFC 6 against Jack McGlaughlin. Win for Joel by tapout against strikes at 2:01.

    UFC 7 against Geza Kelman. Win for Joel by TKO at 0:48.

    Leave a comment:

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