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Fairly good example of what wing chun looks like

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    #61
    Originally posted by Lampa
    I asked if anyone has ever had a bear hug thrown onto them in a SD situation. I have not, but I haven't been in enuogh SD situations to make a viable statistical cross-section. However, it does not seem to me like an intuitive attack from someone coming up behind you with the idea to jack you in mind.

    What I DO know about that situation is that I have been hit in the groin more than once from that angle, provoked by similar disagreements to the one we're having now, and it is not a strike that will drop a committed attacker. Maybe someone who has actually been bear hugged in an SD situation, if we can find some, could enlighten me as to what they find reliable.

    The only time I can think of a bear hug from behind being SD applicable is in the case of an abduction. The reason that bearhug defese never works is because no Actual Bear Hugger ("ABH" hereafter) would bear hug someone with just their arms with the lead leg at a horrible angle and the back leg dragging so as to leave the hips and groin open. A REAL ABH will slip up behind you, bend his knees, wrap his arms around you, and lift while squeezeing . . . and the ABH'S hips will be sucked right up to your buttocks in a manner MOST suggestive because when you grab a guy like that, the easiest way to control him is to suck him all the way into the chest . . . and it protects the ABH'S groin too.

    On the video - it's a wonderful demo of wing chun's WORST points:
    1. Stiff, mechanical, dead forms
    2. Hyperextended arms (and yes, they most certainly are)
    3. Pathetic goat stance
    4. Patty-cake wrist trapping
    5. Bad stand up footwork
    6. Bad stand up distancing
    7. Unrealistic groundwork
    8. Unrealistic expectations about the effect of a single blow.
    9. The silly-ass chain punching that looks like someone playing a japanese rythym game...

    It's my honest opinion that any reasonably aggressive fighter with some realistic training would be on that guy like Djimbe on a pie. ( Im Not sayin0 he's Fat . . . I'm just saing when you Train like Djimbe , with TF"S Methodsd- and Are as Big as Dijmbe, a Pie Is NOT a even CHALLANGE .... he could Smasht he pie WIth out real Effort)

    I'm glad they're sparring in a ring and all, and they are going at it by fairly open rules - but I honestly think that should be de riguer, so it falls under the umbrella of not giving people extra credit for stuff they're supposed to do. It would be interesting to tune in a year from now and see if they've gotten good at it.

    On the video: 2:15 is CERTAINLY sped up. Television professional's word on it. There's a couple other spots that probably are as well.

    On kicking someone 'till they die so you don't have to spend your life looking over your shoulder for Gary Daniels or Jeff Speakman: Grow the hell up.

    On Dr. Tzun Tzu: You seem to have an operative mind - use it to realize someone is using your brain as a martial arts septic tank. You've spouted a LOT of second hand BS in this thread (OMG Chain Punches Smash the brain! Cause the brain floats in goo!)

    And keep in mind, all of you - this thread got started because a wingchunner held it up as good wing chun,

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by It is Fake??
      No it has that now. I'm not saying don't incoporate other styles. I think that is good but, don't pretend _ing _hun had BJJ positional dominance and MT knee strikes up until recently. I.E. before televised MMA competitions. Me and my cousin used to mix it up and he studied for eight years.

      I hate agreeing with tekki but he is right. This is some of the better wing chun I have seen. That being said it isn't your traditional WC. I'm sorry but that looks like MT mixed with some JJ princibles and chain punching. I can actually dig this stuff more so than many of the other WC videos I have seen with the deadly anti -grapple.
      Urgh. A simple concept like positional dominance is not the exclusive property of any art, or of martial artists for that matter. Any reasonably intelligent person can figure out that your own position relative to someone else is important in most sports as well as MA.
      As for 'MT-style knees', same point. For sure it's not in any WC forms, but I used to knee my older brother like that all the time when we'd wrassle. The technique is such a no-brainer that anyone can do it.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by grond
        As for 'MT-style knees', same point. For sure it's not in any WC forms, but I used to knee my older brother like that all the time when we'd wrassle. The technique is such a no-brainer that anyone can do it.
        Wow. repeating what I said. You just can't agree with anyone and got to make it your point.

        It was implied that the knees and positional domminanace are something in _ing _hun. Read lightninghands post that I'm responding to. Notice how he uses MT. Before that Janerio used BJJ and MT as an example. So, I'm just following the train of thought and examples used. Of course I could say you guys watched MT fights and copied it into your fighting.
        Last edited by It is Fake; 4/01/2005 11:39am, .

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by JohnnyCache
          The only time I can think of a bear hug from behind being SD applicable is in the case of an abduction. The reason that bearhug defese never works is because no Actual Bear Hugger ("ABH" hereafter) would bear hug someone with just their arms with the lead leg at a horrible angle and the back leg dragging so as to leave the hips and groin open. A REAL ABH will slip up behind you, bend his knees, wrap his arms around you, and lift while squeezeing . . . and the ABH'S hips will be sucked right up to your buttocks in a manner MOST suggestive because when you grab a guy like that, the easiest way to control him is to suck him all the way into the chest . . . and it protects the ABH'S groin too.

          On the video - it's a wonderful demo of wing chun's WORST points:
          1. Stiff, mechanical, dead forms
          2. Hyperextended arms (and yes, they most certainly are)
          3. Pathetic goat stance
          4. Patty-cake wrist trapping
          5. Bad stand up footwork
          6. Bad stand up distancing
          7. Unrealistic groundwork
          8. Unrealistic expectations about the effect of a single blow.
          9. The silly-ass chain punching that looks like someone playing a japanese rythym game...

          It's my honest opinion that any reasonably aggressive fighter with some realistic training would be on that guy like Djimbe on a pie. ( Im Not sayin0 he's Fat . . . I'm just saing when you Train like Djimbe , with TF"S Methodsd- and Are as Big as Dijmbe, a Pie Is NOT a even CHALLANGE .... he could Smasht he pie WIth out real Effort)

          I'm glad they're sparring in a ring and all, and they are going at it by fairly open rules - but I honestly think that should be de riguer, so it falls under the umbrella of not giving people extra credit for stuff they're supposed to do. It would be interesting to tune in a year from now and see if they've gotten good at it.

          On the video: 2:15 is CERTAINLY sped up. Television professional's word on it. There's a couple other spots that probably are as well.

          On kicking someone 'till they die so you don't have to spend your life looking over your shoulder for Gary Daniels or Jeff Speakman: Grow the hell up.

          On Dr. Tzun Tzu: You seem to have an operative mind - use it to realize someone is using your brain as a martial arts septic tank. You've spouted a LOT of second hand BS in this thread (OMG Chain Punches Smash the brain! Cause the brain floats in goo!)

          And keep in mind, all of you - this thread got started because a wingchunner held it up as good wing chun,
          ill keep this short.
          the style of wing chun is not complete (IMO) it does however teach very good concepts of occupying a persons centerline, because our bodies have two equal sides, occupying the middle is the point on a person means an attack will be fully absorbed, rather than swinging around and giving a person the ability to roll with the punch, (hence all the punching down the middle) these guys are just going for it, and in that sense, they are not well representing the system.

          however, if you watch how quickly the instructors arms swallow his partners, and fold in and take supperior positioning, that is what i personaly thought was a good representation of wing chun. the style should teach a person to fill any gap, and flood any opening. (be like water my friend) that was not made up by bruce, it is a wing chun principle. and all of the styles techniques are supposed to help you achieve that sticky, controling hand work. does that make sense? that guys arms were like octopus arms. thats what a wing chunners hand work should look like. his students are a different story. good luck to them. its a process to learn the kind of sensitivity. that can be used in a fight.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by It is Fake??
            Wow. repeating what I said. You just can't agree with anyone and got to make it your point.

            It was implied that the knees and positional domminanace are something in _ing _hun. Read lightninghands post that I'm responding to. Notice how he uses MT. Before that Janerio used BJJ and MT as an example. So, I'm just following the train of thought and examples used. Of course I could say you guys watched MT fights and copied it into your fighting.
            Let me elaborate. The point I was trying to make is that since this concept and this technique are extremely basic and intuitive, then they belong to any art that chooses to use them.
            Positional dominance is 'in' wing chun. I never said it wasn't. And since wing chun has been around for a lot longer than bjj, I'm suprised some idiot hasn't claimed that bjj 'stole' these ideas from it.

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by grond
              Let me elaborate. The point I was trying to make is that since this concept and this technique are extremely basic and intuitive, then they belong to any art that chooses to use them.
              Positional dominance is 'in' wing chun. I never said it wasn't. And since wing chun has been around for a lot longer than bjj, I'm suprised some idiot hasn't claimed that bjj 'stole' these ideas from it.
              I guess you just did. :icon_pale

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by grond
                Let me elaborate. The point I was trying to make is that since this concept and this technique are extremely basic and intuitive, then they belong to any art that chooses to use them.
                Positional dominance is 'in' wing chun. I never said it wasn't. And since wing chun has been around for a lot longer than bjj, I'm suprised some idiot hasn't claimed that bjj 'stole' these ideas from it.

                Okay in that way I can see your point. Going by the implication of lightninghands this is always taught. Positional domminanace yes. Down on the ground positional domminance and the anti-grapple no.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Feryk
                  I guess you just did. :icon_pale
                  No, my whole point is that something like this is so basic that it could be 'discovered' by any intelligent person.

                  Let me give you an example. I was watching two buddies of mine play wrestle awhile back. One of my friends lowers his body and shoots in to grab my other friend and take him down. His opponent then stiff armed the other guys neck and poped his feet back a little bit while pressing down on the other guys neck. Nobody taught him how to sprawl, he just happens to know something about body-mechanics and gravity.

                  "Positional dominance" is therefore too broad of a concept to be claimed as the province of any art like bjj.

                  To say that certain arts have refined this concept so much so that they get very good at it, on the ground or standing up, is perfectly valid.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Johnny C is exacty right about the bear hug, and that is why I pointed out there are other answers then just that one technique, for if they lift, swing, and if in close, you would reverse elbow strike or some other stuff. It is the same stuff any other style uses in that situation. It is a bad situation to be in for any style....

                    But the Brain does float and knock outs occur when the brain bounces around inside skull, look it up.

                    If these chain punches don't hurt, volunter to stand there and take some :)

                    the forms are supposed to be mechanical, since you are working on the mechanics of the moves.

                    the patty cake is a problem, no arguement from me here

                    over reliance on one punch but chain punches wont work either....hum, I better start to learn how to do arm bars then. :)

                    Septic tank in my head, OK, thats pretty funny.....:)

                    WC gets beat on on the internet because of 2 main reasons: Bruce Lee did Wing Chun and based JKD on it, so everyone wants to prove they can beat Bruce Lees style.....2) because of Bruce WC was one of the most popular arts around in the 70's and 80's and had many, many, many, wanna be instructors form schools from magazine articles and book based education. They would take a few years of classes and then start schools. The Art decayed very, very badly!!

                    So 90% of WC sucks!! But there is still 10% that is good.

                    You are starting to see this with BJJ, every tom dick and hank is a BJJ expert now. But beating them up doesn't prove anything about BJJ, just about them as beginners. Same thing happend to TKD and Karate before. Bandwagon breeds decay...

                    as to the tournament video, those guys are all in White shirts and black Pants(except the blue shorts guy) which is the shirt for the first 5 student grades. That means these guys are raw beginners. And in system Tournaments is a brand new thing in the WT world. Leung Tings people won a bunch of open tournys back in the 1970's but since then there have been very few people in tournaments.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
                      WC gets beat on on the internet because of 2 main reasons: Bruce Lee did Wing Chun and based JKD on it, so everyone wants to prove they can beat Bruce Lees style.....2) because of Bruce WC was one of the most popular arts around in the 70's and 80's and had many, many, many, wanna be instructors form schools from magazine articles and book based education. They would take a few years of classes and then start schools. The Art decayed very, very badly!!
                      Actually it gets beat on because about 1 out of every 5000 WC clips doesn't feature people that look like they can't fight for shit.

                      The only people who care about Bruce lee are the ones signing up for WC in the first place.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by grond
                        No, my whole point is that something like this is so basic that it could be 'discovered' by any intelligent person.

                        Let me give you an example. I was watching two buddies of mine play wrestle awhile back. One of my friends lowers his body and shoots in to grab my other friend and take him down. His opponent then stiff armed the other guys neck and poped his feet back a little bit while pressing down on the other guys neck. Nobody taught him how to sprawl, he just happens to know something about body-mechanics and gravity.

                        "Positional dominance" is therefore too broad of a concept to be claimed as the province of any art like bjj.

                        To say that certain arts have refined this concept so much so that they get very good at it, on the ground or standing up, is perfectly valid.

                        Grond: sprawl is maybe not the best example of positional dominance, at least not in the sense BJJ teaches it. Positional dominance means that your primary goal is to attain a dominant position BEFORE you apply submission. If you watch the anti-grappling vids, what people do: they punch and eyepoke while being mounted, they try to apply submissions from and punch from inside the guard. They launch attacks without gaining positional dominance first.

                        Positional dominance in judo means that before you attempt a throw, you have to establish a dominant grip. If you work with good players you see that once they get the grip, it's over.

                        Positional dominance in striking arts is tough, that's why it's mostly trading punches. The range is too volatile, so even if you are able to gain dominant position for a moment, you are not likely to keep it.
                        (without taking anything away from striking arts, that's just the nature of the beast)

                        Tomas

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by drummerboy
                          Grond: sprawl is maybe not the best example of positional dominance, at least not in the sense BJJ teaches it. Positional dominance means that your primary goal is to attain a dominant position BEFORE you apply submission. If you watch the anti-grappling vids, what people do: they punch and eyepoke while being mounted, they try to apply submissions from and punch from inside the guard. They launch attacks without gaining positional dominance first.

                          Positional dominance in judo means that before you attempt a throw, you have to establish a dominant grip. If you work with good players you see that once they get the grip, it's over.

                          Positional dominance in striking arts is tough, that's why it's mostly trading punches. The range is too volatile, so even if you are able to gain dominant position for a moment, you are not likely to keep it.
                          (without taking anything away from striking arts, that's just the nature of the beast)

                          Tomas

                          This is the correct.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by lightninghands
                            ill keep this short.
                            the style of wing chun is not complete (IMO)...

                            AhA! See, it wasn't even the r34l _ing _ _un

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by PO9
                              AhA! See, it wasn't even the r34l _ing _ _un
                              why bother going there?

                              positional dominance is a pretty tough thing to achieve in striking.
                              like i said before, wing chun teaches a person to stick and control. and strike when the position is open. not to force an opening, but to strike when one is opened. (which happens the instant your opponent opens for an attack, ie jeet kune) thats like going for a submission that isnt there! if you try to force it, you can tire your self out too easy. in striking, you have to be patient and accurate. to quote the man, if
                              he expands, i contract.. if he contracts i expand, i dont hit, it hits all by it self.
                              thats identical to the the wing chun saying. loy lau hoi sung, lut sao jik chun

                              which means force comes, redirect, force retreats, follow, force detaches, strike.

                              all fighitng styles do this in one way or another, wing chun just formally named it. just as all arts acknowledge centerline, but wing chun put heavy emphasis on it.
                              i believe it teaches very good principles of fighting in general.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                I think you know why I went there.

                                Comment

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