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Fairly good example of what wing chun looks like

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    #31
    How do you know he is knocked out? What do you do while you wait around to see if he is moving or drawing a gun or if he is unconcious.

    Your points are well taken, and I agree, try to back away, apologize, give the robber your wallet, what ever you can do to avoid the fight....but after that, or if you are surprized, you can defend yourself. and if you notice in the vid, he only kicks a few times, then stops. This is part of the legitamite altercation....it is one continuos thing...if he stops, then starts kicking he guy again, that is something different....it really comes down to witnesses version of the story and if you can live with yourself for what you have done.

    My legal info comes from a 4 hour seminar on the subject from Agent Douglas Kane, FBI, several books and articals about SD law, and my personal experience dealing with cops after events, here in California. If it is legitamite self defense, and you know your facts and how to answer questions, then there is no problem....but if it is a bar fight or a fight that could have been avoided, then you have a problem....(unless they have a better lawyer and/ or some witnesses that lie, but your screwed no matter what then :qswim: )

    But I agree, maybe the guy was a little ruff on his students in the demo. but maybe they volunteered to get real blows for the effect, we do not know.....

    "The Kyokushin and MT guys look prepared when they fight; the WC guys just look like they're going crazy." I agree with that, the few WC vids of real fight action I have seen are pretty silly.....


    :toothy9:

    PS-nice footnote by the way
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 3/30/2005 9:35pm, . Reason: added Ps

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      #32
      I have a huge problem with the bear hug defense in this video and in KM. Actually, I have several huge problems.

      First off, when does that ever fucking happen? Seriously. If this has ever happened to anyone other than in MA SD practice, please tell me. Maybe I'm just of a body type where people don't want to try it on me and I personally know there are a million better things to do when you have the drop on someone.

      Second, let's say it does happen. Let's say someone decides to give you a hug and your seething hatred for them demands retaliation. Why would you gently caress their groin? This will probably give them to wrong signal and certainly not drop them. I'm not talking out of my ass on this one, either. I have volunteered to have many people hit me in the groin from that angle because I don't believe it's possible to get an effective groin shot from that position. Yet everyone fucking teaches it. Balls swing away. It's part of their design. In order to drop someone with a groin hit you have to knock them either up or against a solid surface.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
        How do you know he is knocked out? What do you do while you wait around to see if he is moving or drawing a gun or if he is unconcious.
        I use my Ninja Skill #4: Getting The Hell Out Of There. Concordantly, I have a black-shoe in Nike-Fu. You don't wait around; you leave before he gets up, or his friends decide they want to have a few words with you. Think about it -- unless you're in an open field with no obstacles (trees, rocks, whatnot), you can get to a safer location in a very short order of time -- the amount of time, in fact, it's going to take for your antagonist to get up. Even if he is faking, it's a dumb fake, because it gives you the ability to get away, call the cops, and whatnot.

        Moreover, a couple of sissy boots to the side or head aren't going to change much, and a real boot-to-the-head could kill the grounded man. Best to not be involved in a manslaughter case.

        Your points are well taken, and I agree, try to back away, apologize, give the robber your wallet, what ever you can do to avoid the fight....but after that, or if you are surprized, you can defend yourself. and if you notice in the vid, he only kicks a few times, then stops. This is part of the legitamite altercation....it is one continuos thing...if he stops, then starts kicking he guy again, that is something different....it really comes down to witnesses version of the story and if you can live with yourself for what you have done.
        That's only partially true; your antagonist's prior criminal record and your martial arts 'hobby' are going to factor into the resultant criminal and civil cases, and even if you don't go to jail, you could still be out thousands for medical bills.

        My legal info comes from a 4 hour seminar on the subject from Agent Douglas Kane, FBI, several books and articals about SD law, and my personal experience dealing with cops after events, here in California. If it is legitamite self defense, and you know your facts and how to answer questions, then there is no problem....but if it is a bar fight or a fight that could have been avoided, then you have a problem....(unless they have a better lawyer and/ or some witnesses that lie, but your screwed no matter what then :qswim: )
        Since you're in California, you know that if you have ANY fight, you have a problem. Even self-defense cases here get prosecuted as assault a lot of the time, and you are twice-screwed if you have a CNC permit. I've been through the legal wringer from this one, thankfully as a minor, and have no desire to do so again.

        But I agree, maybe the guy was a little ruff on his students in the demo. but maybe they volunteered to get real blows for the effect, we do not know.....

        "The Kyokushin and MT guys look prepared when they fight; the WC guys just look like they're going crazy." I agree with that, the few WC vids of real fight action I have seen are pretty silly.....
        That's an understatement; I like some of the theory behind WC, and I've used a bit of the chi sao stuff in sparring, just because it surprised the hell out of my opponents (they don't expect a guy like me to pull wing chun out of his ass), but my big complaint with WC is that there's no torso rotation with the punches.

        My other big complaint, of course, is the same as for all Bullshido schools -- lots of weak-ass training and no sparring. I'm sure a WC school that did both of these would turn out OK fighters.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
          As I said, You should only fight if your life is in real danger, and if so you should be defendable in court. Since we feel you will fight like you train, you need to have those kicks be automatic, so when you think you have won a fight, then you always follow up with three more punches and /or three more kicks.
          You can come up with all sorts of fantasies, but they won't turn your WC into justifiable self-defense. What do you think constitutes a situation so dangerous that you have to repeatedly kick your downed opponent in the head?

          Say you throw the guy down or get a good punch on the juggular, solar plex or base of skull and the guy goes down......how do you know he is out cold? If he's not, and comes at you again, he has advantage cause he is still so close. You need to be striking still just in case and it needs to be automatic.....
          Again, does it matter? Just leave. By the time he gets up, you'll be gone.

          and if someone threatens my life, I wana finish it there, not stop it, and spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder to see if he's coming back for revenge.
          Well don't worry, you'll be very safe in prison.

          and so yes, the WT systems do spend considerable time learning the legal aspects of when to stop fighting, when you can fight back, what to say in court,....
          Right.

          Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
          How do you know he is knocked out? What do you do while you wait around to see if he is moving or drawing a gun or if he is unconcious.
          Er... leave?

          Originally posted by Lampa
          I have a huge problem with the bear hug defense in this video and in KM. Actually, I have several huge problems.

          First off, when does that ever fucking happen? Seriously. If this has ever happened to anyone other than in MA SD practice, please tell me. Maybe I'm just of a body type where people don't want to try it on me and I personally know there are a million better things to do when you have the drop on someone.

          Second, let's say it does happen. Let's say someone decides to give you a hug and your seething hatred for them demands retaliation. Why would you gently caress their groin? This will probably give them to wrong signal and certainly not drop them. I'm not talking out of my ass on this one, either. I have volunteered to have many people hit me in the groin from that angle because I don't believe it's possible to get an effective groin shot from that position. Yet everyone fucking teaches it. Balls swing away. It's part of their design. In order to drop someone with a groin hit you have to knock them either up or against a solid surface.
          You don't seem to have any better ideas. Then again, you don't seem like you ever train for SD.

          Our idea is that if the attacker isn't affected by your attack (like hitting the groin), you'll do something else: stomp on his foot, try to hit him with your head... I've always thought that ramming the guy againts a wall (if one is directly behind him) might work.

          Comment


            #35
            Video appears slightly speeded up at 2:15 in order to confirm how quick he is.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by tokyo ranger
              You don't seem to have any better ideas. Then again, you don't seem like you ever train for SD.

              Our idea is that if the attacker isn't affected by your attack (like hitting the groin), you'll do something else: stomp on his foot, try to hit him with your head... I've always thought that ramming the guy againts a wall (if one is directly behind him) might work.

              Actually, my negative opinions about most SD training stem from my experience in the d34dly str33t fights SD people always seem to talk about. I have been jumped in a bar, mugged by a gypsie-cab driver, and three times confronted by multiple opponents who wanted to drop me and take turns stomping. I realize that all of these situations could have been avoided had I been smarter at the time, but that doesn't make my experience any less real.

              The one technique I have found that I can attest works in a multiple attacker scenario when you can't run away: pulling guard. That's right. The time I best managed to avoid taking a beating was to bring one to the ground and use him as a shield until they heard someone yell and booked. Yet, the first thing that SD guys scoff at is the idea of going to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario.

              Even though I didn't do it until later, it was my actual self defense experience that sold me on the idea that I would need to go get more extensive grappling training. (Until then I had only known a few things other people I worked out with worked with me on. Thankfully it was enough for that situation.)

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by lightninghands
                Of course, this is not against a fully resisting opponent. but it is a good look into some of the type of moves wing chun does.

                i know im askin for it but here goes, there is forms in the beginning, then drills:

                http://www.meihua.ee/video/wtcf.wmv
                Actually, for a WC school, the Estonia dudes throw down quite a bit.
                If you check out their site (not in English)
                http://www.meihua.ee

                Look under the Wing Chun section, select the 3rd from the bottom nav link, right above Bruce Lee (yeah, I know). The links on that page show a lot of hard sparring in gear.

                So while no comment on the cheesiness of the demo, props for realistic training.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Lampa
                  The one technique I have found that I can attest works in a multiple attacker scenario when you can't run away: pulling guard. That's right. The time I best managed to avoid taking a beating was to bring one to the ground and use him as a shield until they heard someone yell and booked. Yet, the first thing that SD guys scoff at is the idea of going to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario.
                  Interesting. I have never been in this situation but I think that most non-grapplers standing by will think that the guy in your guard is actually controlling you and will have less desire to intervene.

                  But you mount the guy and they'll run to help him out.
                  I think guard jumping may be a viable selfdefense move.

                  :)

                  Tomas

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by TacoFu
                    So while no comment on the cheesiness of the demo, props for realistic training.
                    Did we watch the same video?
                    No indication of live training was given in that video.
                    Unless by realistic you mean hitting a guy during a drill, in a manner inconsistent with that drill.
                    I guess I'll be realistic tonight and start G-n-Ping from the guard tonight, even though we're only grappling.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Lampa
                      The one technique I have found that I can attest works in a multiple attacker scenario when you can't run away: pulling guard. That's right. The time I best managed to avoid taking a beating was to bring one to the ground and use him as a shield until they heard someone yell and booked. Yet, the first thing that SD guys scoff at is the idea of going to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario.
                      Our sigung advocates this. I'm not sure he wants to go to the ground, but if faced with multiple attackers he has said to be wary because while you might be punching one guy his buddies are coming in to kick you in the head. I see no problems with using someone as a shield to fend off others. :)

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Lampa
                        Actually, my negative opinions about most SD training stem from my experience in the d34dly str33t fights SD people always seem to talk about. I have been jumped in a bar, mugged by a gypsie-cab driver, and three times confronted by multiple opponents who wanted to drop me and take turns stomping. I realize that all of these situations could have been avoided had I been smarter at the time, but that doesn't make my experience any less real.

                        The one technique I have found that I can attest works in a multiple attacker scenario when you can't run away: pulling guard. That's right. The time I best managed to avoid taking a beating was to bring one to the ground and use him as a shield until they heard someone yell and booked. Yet, the first thing that SD guys scoff at is the idea of going to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario.

                        Even though I didn't do it until later, it was my actual self defense experience that sold me on the idea that I would need to go get more extensive grappling training. (Until then I had only known a few things other people I worked out with worked with me on. Thankfully it was enough for that situation.)

                        A friend of mine once got in a fight with some frat daddies at a frat party. He was fighting with one of the brothers, and then got jumped by a bunch of them at the same time. Someone tackled him from behind and took him down with my friend on the bottom. Apparrently this was the best thing that could've happened, as all the other frat guys started trying to kick the shit out of him. Because he was curled up in the fetal position and the one guy was still holding on to him, most of the kicks hit that guy and not my friend. Then a buddy of his ran up and hit the guy wrestling him with the hard part of a U-lock, and everybody ran away.
                        End of story. :)

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Again, does it matter? Just leave. By the time he gets up, you'll be gone.
                          I think you are missing the point, I am not saying always kick them when they are down, but that in situations where you are forced to fight for your life it may be important. Not counting Military combat situations, I can think of many places where leaving is not an option. Maybe he's in your house and attacks you in the dark, and you have children in other rooms. Maybe the way out is on the opposite side of the bad guy, maybe it is some BJJ guy that goes down as soon as they are in close, trying to pull you to the ground. How are you gonna run away from this?

                          You gotta train to keep hitting and kicking them all the way down, plus a few more, then get out of there. Its called follow up. The famous Royce vs Kung Fu expert vid starts with Royce getting kicked backwards and off balance, but the "expert" stops the attack. That was his one chance, but seeing his effective kick he stopped pressing the attack. Royce later follows up emidatly with a chase down pin to wall and take down,....follow up.


                          and yes it is true alot of people can not tell the difference between able to leave and forced to fight. They have to actually attack you first, or you have to be sure they will not let you live, both are hard places to start fighting back from, so you best get away BEFORE the fight starts.

                          but as I said, if it just you and him, and you are in the right and justified, whats the problem? your gona leave him mad and healthy to pray on someone else?

                          As too the bear hug. Ya, I guess noone ever getts around behind anyone, ever, so don't worry about it. No one has ever been held while another guy punches and wrestlers/ BJJ don't like to get reverse postions on the back side (even standing). There are several other follow up moves in the WT program the go with what you see in this vid, depending if they swing you side to side or try to lift and piledrive backwards, etc...

                          I do think some of the vid is speed up a little. maybe 10% in some spots

                          :fish:

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Lampa
                            Actually, my negative opinions about most SD training stem from my experience in the d34dly str33t fights SD people always seem to talk about. I have been jumped in a bar, mugged by a gypsie-cab driver, and three times confronted by multiple opponents who wanted to drop me and take turns stomping. I realize that all of these situations could have been avoided had I been smarter at the time, but that doesn't make my experience any less real.
                            Is that so? Then why do you consider a bearhug from behind to be such a low threat that it doesn't even warrant a response?

                            The one technique I have found that I can attest works in a multiple attacker scenario when you can't run away: pulling guard. That's right. The time I best managed to avoid taking a beating was to bring one to the ground and use him as a shield until they heard someone yell and booked. Yet, the first thing that SD guys scoff at is the idea of going to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario.
                            Well you have to admit that there's a high risk of fucking up and getting stomped to death. And what if someone hadn't appeared and yelled at them? What then?

                            Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
                            I think you are missing the point, I am not saying always kick them when they are down, but that in situations where you are forced to fight for your life it may be important. Not counting Military combat situations, I can think of many places where leaving is not an option. Maybe he's in your house and attacks you in the dark, and you have children in other rooms. Maybe the way out is on the opposite side of the bad guy, maybe it is some BJJ guy that goes down as soon as they are in close, trying to pull you to the ground. How are you gonna run away from this?
                            Yes, I agree that there always could be situations where it's necessary, but such situations are extremely rare and unlikely. You shouldn't train with the mindset of kicking people dead or unconscious because there might be a need for it in certain scenarios.

                            You gotta train to keep hitting and kicking them all the way down, plus a few more, then get out of there. Its called follow up. The famous Royce vs Kung Fu expert vid starts with Royce getting kicked backwards and off balance, but the "expert" stops the attack. That was his one chance, but seeing his effective kick he stopped pressing the attack. Royce later follows up emidatly with a chase down pin to wall and take down,....follow up.
                            If you're interested in legal self-defense, kicking someone in the head multiple times is not it.

                            but as I said, if it just you and him, and you are in the right and justified, whats the problem? your gona leave him mad and healthy to pray on someone else?
                            And when you've killed him, you just walk home? Not so. Even if killing someone doesn't bother you in the least, I think you'll be more than edgy when you don't know for sure if the cops are on to you or not. Maybe someone did see you, maybe they found your fingerprints, and so on. And when you're caught, it's not going to go down as self-defense.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Yes, I agree that there always could be situations where it's necessary, but such situations are extremely rare and unlikely. You shouldn't train with the mindset of kicking people dead or unconscious because there might be a need for it in certain scenarios.
                              Hopefully I will only be fighting because it is one of those rare situations.....and

                              Hicks law. Every situation warrants starting the kick, just in case. Then you can control power target ect... So you train it everytime. In the vid the badguy covers and stops moving for safety. In real he may be rolling into a guard or reaching for the legs, you can never be sure....follow up must be conditioned to be automatic.....if you pause to think, your going to slow.

                              but if you want to stop attacking and try to run, good luck, I hope you knock them out everytime :-)

                              I will give you that the head stomp after it is over is a little extreme, I am just talking about the kicks and punches as am emidiate follow up

                              Comment


                                #45
                                theu guy from this vid and the bujinkan vid should fight

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