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    An instructor's take on Krav Maga

    After reading through another thread on Krav Maga in which I posted, I was most bothered by Strong Machine's statement that "Krav Maga is bullshido distilled to its essence." This comment was based on an article that was written in the Philly Inquirer about Ernie Kirk's Krav Maga PA schools.

    I want to respond to a few different criticisms that I've seen in various threads and see if I can answer the questions that people have brought up about Krav Maga. In all fairness I'm a big boy, so please feel free to disagree/flame/bitch/whine/moan/applaud, or do anything else that you see fit. This is just one person's opinion.

    My Background
    I think it's important that people know where I am so they don't make any claims of BS on my part. I am currently a Phase B certified instructor through Krav Maga Worldwide (I will explain the instructor system in a bit). I have trained with Krav Maga black belts in both LA and Philadelphia including John Whitman, Michael Margolin, Marni Levine, and Ernie Kirk. I will be more than happy to furnish my instructor credentials to the forum admin if anyone questions this.

    Krav Maga History
    Anyone can pick up a copy of the Krav Maga self-defense book out there and get the full history as told by Eyal Yanilov and Darren Levine, but the short story goes somewhat like this. Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system over several decades of fighting on the streets, working with the jewish underground (the Haganah) before the formation of Israel, and then later becoming the chief H2H instructor for the IDF. Darren Levine, the US Chief Instructor for the Krav Maga Association of America (and Krav Maga Worldwide... for all intents and purposes they are the same thing), was a student of Imi's who received a certificate granting him to right to teach Krav Maga in the US.

    There are many organizations throughout the world that teach Krav Maga. Many have direct links to Imi, many studied with his top students, so on and so forth. Some claim to be the annointed successor to Imi, some don't. All I know for sure is that 1) Imi Lichtenfeld is universally accepted as the founder of Krav Maga, and 2) Darren Levine was chosen by Imi to bring Krav Maga to the United States. There are other forms of Krav Maga out there, but since I have received my training and certifications through Krav Maga Worldwide, I cannot speak for any other organizations.

    Krav Maga Techniques
    Krav Maga techniques are a mixture of many different styles and martial arts. If you were to look at the entire curriculum you would see elements of boxing, muay thai, tae kwon do, BJJ, etc. Imi and subsequently his students did not limit themselves to one style or another. They took what they considered to work and built it into the Krav Maga system. The main goal with Krav Maga was to develop a self-defense system that was: 1) relatively easy to learn so that students can learn to defend themselves in minimal time and with minimal practice and 2) simple enough that it can be learned by people of all ages, sizes, etc. These goals make sense when you put it in context of the Israeli military. New recruits do not have a lot of time to learn self-defense techniques, therefore they must be able to retain what they learn with minimal review. Second, military service is mandatory for men and women, therefore techniques must be usable by everyone. In my opinion Krav Maga as it is currently taught in the United States meets these two goals.

    Krav Maga Evolving
    I've read several posts where people claim that changes in an existing system are nothing more than an indicator of a bad system (I remember distinctly claims made about Tony Blauer and his SPEAR system). Krav Maga is very different than it was 45 years ago... it's even very different than it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago groundfighting was extremely limited in the system, but as ground fighting became more popular and its use proven in various arenas, it was introduced into the Krav Maga system. Does this make Krav Maga a piece a bad system? Personally I think its great that we are able to identify weaknesses and deficiencies in the system and fix them!

    So here is what I often read when this comes up. First, people will say that Krav Maga is ripping off from other systems. Honestly, I can't deny anything there. Groundfighting (again) is a perfect example. Ten years ago it did not really exist in the system, so when our top instructors realized it should be added they looked to BJJ and other grappling arts to see what they could learn. Why reinvent the wheel when someone already has something that works? Did we take elements of BJJ and merge it into our defense system? Yes. But the purpose of what we teach versus BJJ is also very different. BJJ is sport oriented, and whether you're in grappling competitions or fighting in a Pride match, that is much different than a real self-defense situation. When our students are taught groundfighting their number one goal becomes getting off the ground. We have put into the system what we think is necessary to get away safely.

    Second, people will make the claim that Krav Maga is a crock because there are deficiencies in our system. Someone please tell me what system doesn't? If you think your system is the best you are sorely mistaken. There are hundreds of systems out there that will keep you safe, but none of them is perfect. You will never be a lesser person for studying multiple systems, and I always recommend it to my students. Plain and simple, my job is to make sure my students are safe. I've had several students have to defend themselves using techniques I taught them. Were their responses perfect? I doubt it. Could they have employed another system better to stay safe? Most likely. However, in the end the only thing that matters is that my students got home safe because of what I taught them.

    Krav Maga Worldwide's Role
    Krav Maga Worldwide is the corporate entity that controls the licensing of the Krav Maga system (more specifically, the system as taught by KMWW). Any martial arts school can apply to become a licensee, and if you can get instructors certified you will then be able to teach the system. Schools are also allowed to teach Krav Maga as much or as little as they want. Some create Krav Maga only classes, others use it to augment an existing martial arts program. KMWW exists to create standardization among instructors, but the implementation at the individual school level may be different. That is one of the reasons that you will see noticeable differences between school.

    Krav Maga Instructors
    Krav Maga instructors (at least through Krav Maga Worldwide) are certified through what is called phase training. The first three phases of training comprise 3 full weeks of training in both Krav Maga techniques and how to teach them. Instructor candidates normally have a lengthy martial arts background, but when it comes down to it, if you can do the techniques and teach well your background doesn't matter. These are the phases that an instructor moves through:

    - Phase A - Yellow Belt
    - Phase B - Orange Belt
    - Phase C - Green Belt
    - Expert Series I - Blue Belt
    - Expert Series II - Brown Belt
    - Expert Series III - Black Belt preparation
    - Expert Series IV (invitation only) - Black Belt
    *Minimum training time to Black Belt as an instructor is approximately 3 years.

    Each phase of training is separate, so after you complete your first week of training you are allowed to go ahead and start teaching. While this may make some people groan, I am a fan of this system, most notably because of the teaching component of the courses. Doing the techniques is one thing, but learning how to teach is extremely vital. I have taken other martial arts including Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu, and in both of those schools instructors were usually high level students chosen by the master instructor. While I often received great instruction, there were others that were not that good. I chalk this up to the idea that a good practitioner does not necessarily make a good instructor. As Krav Maga instructor you have to go through mock teaching scenarios, and your certification can be lost because you don't know how to teach, regardless of how good you may be. What we need in the self-defense/martial arts world is more great instructors, and Krav Maga attempts to foster this through their training.

    Krav Maga Classes and the Realities of Business
    Krav Maga classes are meant to be an intense training session that combines fitness and self-defense. This is how it is marketed, and surely some of you think that it is nothing more than a Tae Bo variant. Unfortunately there is the reality that school owners need students to survive. If you've ever run a school you understand the difficulties associated with bringing in new students, maintaining membership, and all the other headaches associated with running a school. KMWW has gone to great lengths to create a marketing component to Krav Maga that will allow schools to survive. While it would be great if I could run a school without advertising, I need to get people through the door if I want to stay open. I will do everything I can to make Krav Maga attractive to large segments of the population. Some want to hear about the fitness aspects, some want to hear about the self-defense, and some just want something different to do. What matters to me is that your experience in class meets and exceeds the reason why you are there. If I want to run a successful business I cannot be so arrogant as to say that I will only train the most hardcore students. If that's the case then I might as well find a new profession.

    Like I said before, Krav Maga has both fitness and self-defense elements. Techniques are presented in a standard way (instructor demonstrates, you copy by hitting pads, etc.), but the difference with what we do is the drills. Krav Maga students learn relatively quickly that quitting is not an option, so we run them through drills that stress them physically and mentally, and they are given a workout that is second to none. It's different from many of the traditional martial arts classes out there, and for most that's the change that they're looking for. Students gain the practical self-defense knowledge, but at the same time they are getting the fitness element that is important for success in a self-defense situation. You may be great at throwing a punch, but if you get tired after 5 seconds of your body being jammed with adrenaline, then you'll most likely get badly hurt.

    I think I've addressed a lot of questions/comments that people have about Krav Maga, but I'm more than happy to answer questions. My one caveat is that yes, Krav Maga differs from school to school. That's the same with any martial art, and it's up to you to decide whether you want to attend a school. We're in the process of opening schools in my area, and I would be more than happy to invite any forum members to demos and intros when we're up and running so you can make your own decision as to whether Krav Maga is a bunch of bullshido.

    Be safe.

    #2
    Is there sparring in the curriculum? When does it begin? Is it hard contact?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by KMHawk
      I will be more than happy to furnish my instructor credentials to the forum admin if anyone questions this..
      Do that. After verification by the administrator, this site will note that distinction in your profile.

      Thanks for a lengthy explanation. Now, how about the short version.
      Can you tell me in five sentences, what KM is (without sounding like hype)?

      `~/
      sigpic

      Comment


        #4
        When you say they added things to Krav, like say ground fighting. Did they actually go train with expert grapplers on what they wanted to learn. Or did they rent some Machado DVD'S and call it a day? I am always suspect of a system that suddenly has ground fighting experts in less time than it takes to get a BJJ black belt.

        Comment


          #5
          Some phrases I saw that stood out were, "minimal practice" and "all shapes and sizes." If Krav Maga claims to be able to teach anyone to defend themselves with minimal practice, as you imply that it does, then it is certainly Bullshido.

          Another thing: Incorporating "elements" of BJJ, Muay Thai, TKD, etc. does not mean that the practitioners of KM will be proficient at any of the techniques of the above arts. For example, simply knowing the mechanics of an armbar does not mean that someone could use an armbar in real life. It takes years of practice and hours of rolling to develop the skill to use such a technique. It takes even more to be able to teach it.

          If KM instructors simply trained BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, etc for a year and now claim to be incorporating those styles into KM, then they are guilty of seriously defrauding their students. It's even worse if they just watched some DVDs and went to a few seminars.

          Finally, aren't we over the whole "You guys train for sport, we train for teh str33t" thing?

          Comment


            #6
            I have one huge problem with Krav Maga. It's more Mcdojo and Bullshido than almost anything I've seen or done on very specific areas:

            It's claims to teach everybody in short time with minimal practice (bullshido)
            The claim makes it marketable to all the fly by nighters (Mcdojo)
            It's mass market claims have attempt to make it sound better than it is (bullshido/Mcdojo)

            IMO opinion and experiance they're teaching nothing new, nothing better and nothing that good. I've met some good Krav Maga guys but I've met more that are just full of themselves. But in their defense I've seen this in many systems. I'm not impressed with Krav Maga, never have probably never will. I personally think it's a jealousy annoyance thing where I've seen the shit they show and go "duh, this is what I've done for years and I've not taking Krav maga. What makes these assholes anymore special? Oh and you can teach immediately afterwards? What kinda crap is that? Where's the base? None? Yeah like I said crap!!!"

            rant off.

            Comment


              #7
              Alright, here we go:

              "Can you tell me in five sentences, what KM is (without sounding like hype)? "

              To me, Krav Maga is a self-defense system, nothing more, nothing less. It uses techniques that are relatively simple but effective to teach people how to defend themselves in everyday life.

              "Is there sparring in the curriculum? When does it begin? Is it hard contact?"

              Yes, there is sparring in the curriculum. On the student side sparring will start in Level 2 (Yellow belt) and continue through the rest of the curriculum. In the first level (approx. 4 months) we're focused on trying to get students comfortable with basic striking techniques so that they can use them more proficiently while sparring. The level of contact will increase as you get higher in level, but as I'm sure you've seen some students are more willing to go harder than others. Two good students in a Level 3 class are usually going pretty hard. Instructors are expected to spar from the get go, but considering we train for 8 hours/day during phase training it's definitely lighter. We are expected to continue sparring training when back at our schools, and most instructors go very hard. If you watch some black belts spar they go almost 100%. Injury is always a factor though, and I would never let someone spar so hard that they're hurting others.

              "When you say they added things to Krav, like say ground fighting. Did they actually go train with expert grapplers on what they wanted to learn. Or did they rent some Machado DVD'S and call it a day?"

              This is a good question and I don't know the answer (I will contact John Whitman and get an answer however). Bas Rutten has worked very closely with our instructors in LA, and he has taught many seminars in conjunction with Darren Levine (our chief instructor). Several instructors also have significant grappling backgrounds (BJJ, etc.). Cross training is strongly encouraged, and you will often find them working with top trainers from other styles to learn various techniques. As an aside, Krav Maga practitioners are not the most adept ground fighters since it does not fit into what we're attempting to do. We train our students to stand up as quickly as possibly because a lengthy ground fight in a parking lot or with multiple attackers is a bad situation.

              "Some phrases I saw that stood out were, "minimal practice" and "all shapes and sizes." If Krav Maga claims to be able to teach anyone to defend themselves with minimal practice, as you imply that it does, then it is certainly Bullshido."

              It all depends on what you consider to be defending yourself. I am not claiming that I can turn someone into a hardcore street fighter in 4 months, and that's honestly the last thing I want to do. The majority of my students are professionals that are looking for a way to protect themselves in every day life. What I am doing is equipping them to be able to defend themselves in common situations. A woman in a self-defense situation is most likely to encounter a choke of some sort, and I can teach someone to competantly defend against it very quickly. With minimal practice the technique can be easily recalled. The majority of situations that my students will encounter will involve untrained fighters... they're learning what is necessary to get out, not to destroy some guy who has 10 years of kickboxing and BJJ experience.

              "Incorporating "elements" of BJJ, Muay Thai, TKD, etc. does not mean that the practitioners of KM will be proficient at any of the techniques of the above arts. For example, simply knowing the mechanics of an armbar does not mean that someone could use an armbar in real life."

              I agree with that to a certain extent. However, I think that my students are very adept at the techniques that they learn. Just because they're not training every technique from a particular system doesn't mean that they can't utilize a single technique from that system. Groundfighting is an altogether different monster. Arm bars are not something that students learn until they have been training for over a year. The reason, as I stated before, is that we are not groundfighters. A Level 3 student may learn an armbar, but I almost never suggest using it, especially in a real situation. Rolling around on the ground on the floor of a bar is the worst situation you can be in, even if you're winning. The chances of your head getting stomped in by the person's buddy are pretty good.

              "If KM instructors simply trained BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, etc for a year and now claim to be incorporating those styles into KM, then they are guilty of seriously defrauding their students. It's even worse if they just watched some DVDs and went to a few seminars.

              Krav Maga instructors train what they learn in the curriculum. We don't say, "This technique is from BJJ, this technique is from TKD, etc." I know the difference because I have studied other styles, and you can see where a lot of the stuff comes from. We don't claim to incorporate styles, but with this being a hybrid system most martial artists can see where the influences come from. Imi put into the system what he thought to be effective and simple, and that philosophy still holds true today. If it's simple and effective, why not use it?

              Finally, aren't we over the whole "You guys train for sport, we train for teh str33t" thing?"

              I'm not making the argument that one is better than the other, but there is a distinct difference between the training. If you're a BJJ practitioner, I doubt you're going to hear your instructor say that if you're in someone's guard to pummel him in the groin if you'as hard as you can until he lets go. That to me is a significant difference because it's a different mindset. While there are limits as to what you can do in class, I keep it fresh in my student's minds that they should do whatever they can to get away. I respect all martial artists (and I encourage my students to do the same) because everyone puts in their blood, sweat, and tears to be as proficient as possible in their chosen art.

              Comment


                #8
                what can you say on behalf of the (in my opinion crummy) system of instructor certification? Go for a week and suddenly you're an instructor? that is pretty BS to me. I've heard that at some of the higher levels it can be a bit tough, especially for an entire week, but thats moot. A week of instruction and people can be certified to teach?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Another response... this one didn't pop up when I was writing the others:

                  "IMO opinion and experiance they're teaching nothing new, nothing better and nothing that good. I've met some good Krav Maga guys but I've met more that are just full of themselves."

                  Are we teaching anything new? Technically not. All of these techniques have been around for god-knows how many years/decades/centuries. To me the difference is in the way that they're taught to students. Our classes are very different from a traditional martial arts class, and for some that's the difference that they want. A lot of traditional martial artists will say, "I've always done that!" I don't doubt that. Krav Maga is NOT a new way of fighting or a new way of approaching. It's a system that incorporates many different fighting elements and teaches them in a very specific way.

                  I'm sorry that you have met Krav Maga people that are full of themselves, but is that any different from any other self-defense system or martial art? There will always be people that claim they are the best or arrogant because of their art of choice. I've met TKD people that say they can kick my head off, or BJJ guys that think they're god because they can roll. If I took that attitude then I would probably hate every style out there because I'm sure I can find someone from every style who thinks like this.

                  "It's claims to teach everybody in short time with minimal practice (bullshido)
                  The claim makes it marketable to all the fly by nighters (Mcdojo)
                  It's mass market claims have attempt to make it sound better than it is (bullshido/Mcdojo)"


                  I addressed that first part already. The marketing of Krav Maga is what it is, like it or not. Remember that there is a business underneath this, and for the schools to exist you have to make money. Personally, I never make claims that I can't meet, but I can say with 100% honesty that I can teach someone how to defend themselves in a relatively short time span. I never claim that they will be 100% safe or that they can take on anyone. In fact, if I start seeing that attitude in my students I will ask them to leave.

                  All Krav Maga licensees must be approved by Krav Maga Worldwide, and all instructors are required to pass instructor phase training. Can this result in fly-by-night schools? Sure, but so can any martial art that is marketing on any type of large scale. Instructors are required to re-certify or re-train every six months so that we don't have that problem. However, I am not part of KMWW and their corporate dealings, so I can't necessarily speak completely to this.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Like I said, Mcdojo. Believe it or not I'm not really saying it sucks. I'm saying it rubs me the wrong way. Krav Maga is a Mcdojo system own up to it and let's get on with our lives. Anytime a Mcdojo system claims it's not just irritates the fucking crap out of me. You should see my face when some shmuck comes up to me and says they want to take this.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      And again...

                      "what can you say on behalf of the (in my opinion crummy) system of instructor certification? Go for a week and suddenly you're an instructor?"

                      First off, you do have to remember that the majority of people that go phase training are school owners that teach other styles. Also, when you pass phase training you are only allowed to teach up through what you are certified. Therefore, a Phase A instructor is only allowed to teach the techniques from the Level 1 curriculum. He is not allowed to teach techniques that he has not been certified in. And yes, Phase training is absolutely brutal.

                      Also remember that instructors don't just go to phase training and do nothing else. Most study with higher level instructors in their area because, honestly, if you just go to Phase without training on your own you will never pass.

                      My rebuttal is that while you may think it's a bad system, have you ever taken a Krav maga class and checked out any of the instructors? Just like with any system some will be better than others, and that's why I always tell people to check out any school you're thinking about joining. If at that point you think they suck, then don't go. However, one bad instructor in a system doesn't mean that the system sucks. There are horrible instructors everywhere you go.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I did Krav Maga for six months starting about june I think it was. I also know many people who have gone through the krav certification. I DO know about krav and how the certification system works. Doesn't mean I still dont think the krav certification program is a cruddy system. Do you see BJJ teaching certificates given to other instructors simply because they took BJJ for a week?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by omega
                          Like I said, Mcdojo. Believe it or not I'm not really saying it sucks. I'm saying it rubs me the wrong way. Krav Maga is a Mcdojo system own up to it and let's get on with our lives. Anytime a Mcdojo system claims it's not just irritates the fucking crap out of me. You should see my face when some shmuck comes up to me and says they want to take this.
                          If that's your take, then what do you think is best for a martial arts school? Should we only have small schools with 10 students? Sure, you would wind up with some great practitioners, but so many people would miss out on what is being taught.

                          Krav Maga is attempting to reach the mass market so that everyone can learn self-defense. If you want to call it a McDojo, then feel free. However, I will do whatever I can to teach as MANY people as possible. That's my job as an instructor.

                          I see that you're an instructor. How large is your school? Would you like to have more students so you can reach out to more people? Would you open more schools if you could? For most instructors the answer is yes for this. We all want to open a lot of school (financial benefits aside) because we love to teach people. The more the better.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by KMHawk
                            Alright, here we go:

                            ["Some phrases I saw that stood out were, "minimal practice" and "all shapes and sizes." If Krav Maga claims to be able to teach anyone to defend themselves with minimal practice, as you imply that it does, then it is certainly Bullshido."

                            It all depends on what you consider to be defending yourself. I am not claiming that I can turn someone into a hardcore street fighter in 4 months, and that's honestly the last thing I want to do. The majority of my students are professionals that are looking for a way to protect themselves in every day life. What I am doing is equipping them to be able to defend themselves in common situations. A woman in a self-defense situation is most likely to encounter a choke of some sort, and I can teach someone to competantly defend against it very quickly. With minimal practice the technique can be easily recalled. The majority of situations that my students will encounter will involve untrained fighters... they're learning what is necessary to get out, not to destroy some guy who has 10 years of kickboxing and BJJ experience.

                            "Incorporating "elements" of BJJ, Muay Thai, TKD, etc. does not mean that the practitioners of KM will be proficient at any of the techniques of the above arts. For example, simply knowing the mechanics of an armbar does not mean that someone could use an armbar in real life."

                            I agree with that to a certain extent. However, I think that my students are very adept at the techniques that they learn. Just because they're not training every technique from a particular system doesn't mean that they can't utilize a single technique from that system. Groundfighting is an altogether different monster. Arm bars are not something that students learn until they have been training for over a year. The reason, as I stated before, is that we are not groundfighters. A Level 3 student may learn an armbar, but I almost never suggest using it, especially in a real situation. Rolling around on the ground on the floor of a bar is the worst situation you can be in, even if you're winning. The chances of your head getting stomped in by the person's buddy are pretty good.

                            Finally, aren't we over the whole "You guys train for sport, we train for teh str33t" thing?"

                            I'm not making the argument that one is better than the other, but there is a distinct difference between the training. If you're a BJJ practitioner, I doubt you're going to hear your instructor say that if you're in someone's guard to pummel him in the groin if you'as hard as you can until he lets go. That to me is a significant difference because it's a different mindset. While there are limits as to what you can do in class, I keep it fresh in my student's minds that they should do whatever they can to get away. I respect all martial artists (and I encourage my students to do the same) because everyone puts in their blood, sweat, and tears to be as proficient as possible in their chosen art.
                            What in the world makes you think that women are most likely to get choked when attacked? Source?

                            You are absolutely wrong when you say that you don't need to train in a style in order to cherry pick a few techniques from it (I'm paraphrasing). You absolutely MUST train in a style for quite a long time before even the basics can be done on an unwilling opponent. Try teaching a grappler to punch. It takes YEARS of training before he's comepetent enough to actually use the techniques. On the flip side, try teaching a kickboxer a heel hook. He'll have to learn a shit ton of grappling before that one technique is useful at all.

                            Pummeling someone's groin in the guard is probably only slightly more effective than eye-gauging from the bottom of the mount. If you try such a technique, you're probably only setting yourself up to get hurt. Honestly, why do "str33t fighters" think they're the only ones to think of this stuff? It just baffles me. You don't hear grapplers say stupid shit like, "You won't be able to box with me if I use my special anti-striking wrist grab!!!" Well, maybe you do, sometimes... LOL.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by KMHawk
                              "When you say they added things to Krav, like say ground fighting. Did they actually go train with expert grapplers on what they wanted to learn. Or did they rent some Machado DVD'S and call it a day?"

                              This is a good question and I don't know the answer (I will contact John Whitman and get an answer however). Bas Rutten has worked very closely with our instructors in LA, and he has taught many seminars in conjunction with Darren Levine (our chief instructor). Several instructors also have significant grappling backgrounds (BJJ, etc.). Cross training is strongly encouraged, and you will often find them working with top trainers from other styles to learn various techniques. As an aside, Krav Maga practitioners are not the most adept ground fighters since it does not fit into what we're attempting to do. We train our students to stand up as quickly as possibly because a lengthy ground fight in a parking lot or with multiple attackers is a bad situation.
                              I sent this info to another member via PM earlier. Maybe I should have just posted here on the thread. Richard Bressler works with the KM people in LA a lot. He teaches a groundfighting class there twice a week still. From what I was able to find on the net and talking with him when I trained a couple times at the LA training center he got his Brown from Rorion and his black from Fabio Santos. Apparently Richard was Rorion's first student here in the states. I couldn't really find too much about him on the net other than that.

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