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Sayoc kali. Tell me your opinions!

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    Sayoc kali. Tell me your opinions!

    I found a Sayoc Kali school in Philly that I'm thinking of attending in another month or 2

    So for anyone that has any experience with this art I'd like some opinions on it like how is the style overall, how was your experience, does it blend well with any other styles etc.

    Also is there anything else to look out for so I'm not walkin into a mcdojo besides the usual "sparring, no kids in the class, doesn't make you sign a contract"

    Thanks for the help

    Stay away...BULLSHIDO personified

    :XXfart: This thread is gonna get me attacked by all the Sayoc nuthugging retards but its the truth.I took seminars in 1998 out in Long Island with the Sayoc"tribe".
    Dont waste your money and time.Buy "Put em Down Take em Out:Knife Fighting techniques from Folsom Prison" by Don Pentescost , and Peyton Quinn's "Defending Against The Blade " video...

    1) Tuhon Chris Sayoc is GROSSLY overweight.I suspect the guy must have some pretty serious personal issues ,loading up on food may make him forget his "pain"
    I dont want to get taught techniques by someone that doesnt have enough respect for themself to keep them from being 50 to 100lbs overweight...
    basically this guy came from Pekiti Tirsi and I think he decide to give the consumer what they wanted : an all blade all the time system of kali...he was supposed to take over from GT Gaje put declined so that he could do his own thing with his "family " system...I think the guy is a marketing genius ,he gave people what they wanted..and they came
    Here is a flyer I got at the seminars,you dont see this one anymore:

    Christopher Sayoc is a world renowned expert in edged weapons and tactics.His families ancestry in the Filipino Martial Arts can be traced back over 5 generations! But it is not just his Sayoc lineage that makes him a true virtuosoin the Filipino martial arts.From the age of 3 ,Tuhon Sayoc had a facination with knives.As a child of 6 years olD,he had begun to exoperiment with projectile weaponry.He was already familiar with both the spin and the flight trajectory patterns that different weapons produced.By the age of 12,he was already training and engaging in live weapon drills with,at that time were considered the world's leading Filipino experts in edged weaponry.AT AGE 15 ,TUHON SAYOC HAD ALREADY COMBAT TESTED HIS TRAINING IN NUMEROUS LIVE BLADE CONFRONTATIONS!And, was teaching many highly experienced martial artists more than twice his age.It wasin his late teens that he felt the need to bring his families art,and hisown expertise to an even higher level . HE THEN CONSULTED WITH HIS UNCLE,A WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED SECURITY CONSULTANT IN THE pHILLIPINES,WHO IS ALSO KNOWN AS ONE OF THE WORLDS LEADING EXPERTS IN THE FIELD OF SECURITY.FROM THAT POINT ONtUHON sAYOC'S LIFE WAS CHANGED FOREVER.AS AN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY OPERATIVE,HIS LIFE AND IDENTITY WERE CONCEALED EVEN FROM HIS OWN FAMILY.FOR MANY YEARS NO ONE KNEW HIS WHEREABOUTS OR OBJECTIVES.IN FACT, MANY PEOPLE DOUBTED HIS EXISTANCE AND BELIEVED HE WAS KILLED IN A FOREIGN MILITARY OPERATION. IT WAS ONLY RECENTLY THAT HE SURFACED,AND IS READY TO INTRODUCE TO THE WORLD,THE SECRETS OF HIS FAMILIES ART,SAYOC KALI.the art of the blade. A man that brings four generations worth of edged weapons knowledge to the table combined with COUNTLESS SUCCESSSFUL LIVE BLADE COMPLEX ENGAGEMENTS.Come to a Sayoc Kali seminar with Tuhon Christopher Sayoc Sr ,and experience the true essence of the phiillpines-land of the brave and unconquerable."

    Jesus , where do you begin? Ill let that speak for itself...

    There was another little pamphlet that said something to the effect of," WE CANNOT STOP UNTIL WE ,AND THE FINAL GENERATION ARE LEGENDS"

    Huh? Legends?Foreign Military operations. I saw a vid clip of a teenage Tuhon training w/ Dan Insoanto,he was fat then tooo...foreign military operation? naah he was at the chow hall if he was in the military.Its all very vague...

    By the way it costs $300. 00 an hour to train with the fat man...

    The training itself?

    They tell you the system is FEEDER BASED,you have a knife in your hand already.The empty hand defenses IMHO are pretty laughable ,they work swell when youre doing a drill but thats a drill.Sayoc doesnt have a lot of Tagalog terms ,it hascomplex psuedo scientific and military terms like "conditioned reflex response" and no angling like #1.#2 ,instead the targets are anatomical targets. A family system with no Taglog names for anything? thats because they had a doctor friend help them with that,it sounds different and it seems different and thats "cutting edge" knife survival. Spend big time bucks at the "Sama Sama" where you get to dance around a bonfire with your knives. Youll go broke buying the reatrde "training rig" Students tell you its just for taining but I saw some psychos wearing a version of one as we left the seminar...
    Tuhon acts like his shit dont stink.Thats the truth.I know all the Sayoc nuthuugers who pay their dough will jump on me saying hes a swell guy.Nope he's arrogant fat guy .Could you learn somethin practical? Yes a little but youll spoend most of your time doing "Transition drills " that wont work in real time but it will eat up class time and seminar hours
    Its great to be a hardcore knifefighter.Look on some kali forums and youll see a student of Atienza kali(they are pals w/Sayoc Kali)stabbing a boincer in the FEMORAL ARTEREY Because the bouncer told his pal he couldnt smoke in the bar...
    Save your money.Take a regular kali/escrima class...and get ready for the "Sayoc Tribe " nuthugging to begin, I wont resopond to any of it ...its gonna be like this :

    "John Kreese you have no intimate understanding of the technicalities and attack progression involved in Sayoc Kali: the Art of The Blade. Tuhon Sayoc is a master practitioner and generous with his time ... BLAH ,BLAH ,BLAH we ahve some insigght as to who you are ,perhaps you would like to attend a seminar (veiled threats)..."

    people believe what they wanna believe,so there... :eusa_booh

    I cant wait until 10 years from now when his students start to break away and start their OWN knife fighting systems ...


      I don't understand why you would judge the style based on Chris Sayoc's weight problem. Tom Kier (another head sayoc instructor) is also a rather heavy man but he can move, believe me.

      its true that chris trained with Leo gaje but he also trained extensively with inosanto, atienza among others. His father is an extremely accomplished martial artist in his own right.

      As far as your perspective on the style, the seminars are meant to enhance ones training not be it. I would agree that they are a waste of money. Have you ever trained at a sayoc school? every one is different but at the end of every class we usually free flow for about 10 minutes. Not everything you learn will work initially but that is the practitioners fault and not neccessarily the styles.

      Sayoc Kali is a big investment of time and money.... To really grasp the style takes a long time b/c they dont show beginners everything. Not that they have "secret moves" but some techniques and concepts are so simple to execute, that A) they dont want you to rely on them and B)they dont want the information in the wrong hands. It seems like the farther I go in Sayoc and hit another level, everything I was previously taught or thought was true turns out to be false.

      In closing tuhon sayoc is fat, the training is time consuming and expensive, but as far as a knife fighting system goes, I think its one of the best. I would advise you Kultra to go down to the school and see for yourself. do you know who the instructor is?


        Well so far I went to 1 seminar and I liked it enough to want to train with the group that's being created here...

        It didn't have technical filipino terms and I'll rather have someone tell me (and demonstrate) that if the feeder shows the blade in a certain way at a certain angle your reflexive response will be to move in a certain way and the drills is to make you respond in better way which is what they call the 'conditioned reflex response' (I don't see what's 'pseudo scientific' about that.)

        From what I'm told and read the sayoc group have the respect of the dog brothers so I guess that's a reference in terms of not teaching things that don't work...and going full speed and full force in terms of testing it...

        I do recomend on going their and seeing it for yourself, afterall "to each his own"
        Martial Arts is like sex, if you over complicate it with exotic sounding names, theories and principles, you end up fucking yourself in the ass. -Ronin69


          In the end, school is more important than style.
          Monkey Ninjas! Attack!


            Originally posted by gojuJKDdude
            I don't understand why you would judge the style based on Chris Sayoc's weight problem. Tom Kier (another head sayoc instructor) is also a rather heavy man but he can move, believe me.
            Fat people while they may have physical power (having to carry all that blubber 24/7) they've got no endurance or agility, qualities necessary to becoming a competent fighter. If you can't impart these elements to those you instruct because you're incapable of it yourself as an instructor, you should quit teaching combat and join Jenny craig or weight watchers instead.

            Lard ass and John Perkin's clone is the guy in the gray tank top ->

            In closing tuhon sayoc is fat, the training is time consuming and expensive,
            ...and apparently not a very physically demanding system. They must substitute that with a Twinkie regime of some kind.
            Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena


              Originally posted by Kultra
              I found a Sayoc Kali school in Philly that I'm thinking of attending in another month or 2

              So for anyone that has any experience with this art I'd like some opinions on it like how is the style overall, how was your experience, does it blend well with any other styles etc.

              Also is there anything else to look out for so I'm not walkin into a mcdojo besides the usual "sparring, no kids in the class, doesn't make you sign a contract"

              Thanks for the help
              Sayoc kali must stand for, "Be as fat as you want and still be a deadly knife fighter!!!" This is a perfect system for phil elmore. :toothy6:

              Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena


                poidog will have many positive things to say.

                I watched a DVD clip of them sparring with each other. They were whacking each other pretty damned hard, and groundfighting hardcore: Knees to the head, ground and pound, even ramming one another's head into a tree and drawing blood from scalp wounds and such.

                Unless they're very talented videographers and actors, with a hell of a special effects crew, they've got some hardcore things going on. That's just based off of watching one of their DVDs. Poidog is a far more knowledgeable person about stickfighting than I am.

                If you'd like, I can ask the Kali instructor at my school what he thinks.


                  Well the Dogbrothers are hardcore no doubt ,but they are preoccupied with DUELING. Youre not gonna have to fight in a death match anytime soon and gangs of kids with rattannsticks are pretty rare in this hemisphere.Real fuights aren't duels like DBMA and the UFC ,they can help tremendously in preparing for one but they arent the total answerCheck out some RBSD knife defenses,this guy wants you to block and parry ,hes training you to do drills not to respond to an attack,"oh but the drills DO teach that!" yeah ,sure they do...What are the Tagalog terms for "conditioned and relfexive response?"The system isnt physically demanding at all ,unless youre out of shape like Tuhon .By the way ,think for a second about what ypure training to do here. A student of the Atienzas (pals of the Sayocs) used a knife to fatally kill a Manhattan bouncer by stabbing him in the leg.The kid was convicted of murder.Thats what you get when you train "all blad ,all the time"He stabbed an unarmed man who was doing his job.See you in 10 years pal. When I started out it was all impressive and cool ,the drills are cool and make you feel like your accokmplishing something are your learning how to do a drill and youre paying for Chris's freezer full of mozerella sticks.Sayoc nuthuggers will tell me that I dont understan the style.I went to 4 seminars and I seen enough,believe me...Wont it be great when the cops take your multiple knives off you along with your Satyoc Kali memebership card and your International Blade Fighters Guild Card.Christmas comes early for the prosecuting attorney.So everytrhing they taught you they said wasnt applicable anymore .Great. Why learn in the first place. Because you gotta have the dough re mi coming in.

                  Sayoc Kali makes me want to :XXpuke:


                    If you are curious, go and see for yourself. Clearly John Kreese has an issue with it. Keep what he says in mind, but keep your mind open. Also, if you search this site, there have been threads on Sayoc Kali before. If I remember correctly most people are fairly positive on the style.

                    If you feel that they are teaching you something, and it is worth the price, then do it. If not, then pass. As long as they aren't asking ridiculous money up front and a long contract, what's the harm in making your own judgements?
                    Originally posted by pauli
                    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's shit for your own philosophical betterment.

                    Originally posted by melvin_peebles
                    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.


                      As a personal choice I have separated myself from the Sayoc Kali system as well as any sort of weapons based fighting in general. I would say that 95% of practitioners of weapons based arts will never use their knowledge in the real word, and if anything, be prone to escalating a non-deadly physical confrontation into an assault with a deadly weapon. I would say that most people period will never be in a life-threatening situation involving weapons.

                      Which is okay. I don't practice BJJ because it'll make me fight better, I do BJJ because it's fun. So if you're doing it because you enjoy it, that's fine. All I'm concerned with is the militant attitude many FMA/weapons-based systems promote, as well as general paranoia.

                      But that's for another thread.

                      Personally, I feel that the Sayoc system is, at it's core, a money-making organization. On top of membership fees to the Sayoc organization, the cost of instruction comes with a very high premium. Some people are comfortable with that, but I'm not. On one hand, you have instructors telling you not to show what they're showing you to anyone else, and on the other hand, the Sayoc organization releases DVD's available to the public on the same material. You're encouraged to purchase a "rig" along with a bevy of aluminum training blades (usually around $50 each). "Official Sayoc Training Blades" of course. There are other things that I did not like, but thats the core of it.

                      But otherwise, I just have a problem with FMA in general.

                      EDIT: These are just my personal experiences.
                      Last edited by deus ex machina; 1/24/2005 1:25pm, .


                        Even though Deus and I disagree on almost every level, he makes a great point. Why are you looking to study with the Sayocs? For fun? For self-defense? If you've seen some of their drills, and liked it, why not study with them? Personally, I've seen both Tuhon Tom Kier and Tuhon Chris Sayoc move, and think that with blades in their hands, they'd eviscerate most any opponent. Yeah, Tuhon Chris is a big boy, but so what. Cus D'Amato has turned out some of the most feared fighters in boxing - hell, he guided THE most feared boxer to championship. Tuhon Chris is a trainer, he turns out very good fighters. I like the Sayocs and I like what they have to offer. I don't currently train with them because of a) location and b) cost. I couldn't afford it right now even if I was near them. But cost does not equal waste of money.

                        Ultimately, figure it out for yourself. Ignore Kungfoolss because he's an idiot. Kreese sounds like an idiot. Deus and I don't agree but I respect him and his opinions.
                        Kuha'o - Kela - Koa


                          An idiot? Thats your opinion.

                          Someone asked for opinions on the style and having taken a few seminars I gave my opinion .I talked about what I observed.Have you trained in Sayoc Kali? I havent had extensive training but I saw enough to know that its a waste of time. Want to know how to use a blade,practice the 3 of 9 ,thats all you need to know,or for that matter , any combination of attacks will do. You dont need "isolation of transition drills 5 count smoking knife drills #1 to 36."Hey go become the Katipunan di punong guro of the system ,thats cool with me. I was just detailing my experience with it..deus is spot on with his asessment of weapons training ...and you agree with him ,but im an idiot. :bduh:


                            Originally posted by John Kreese
                            An idiot? Thats your opinion.
                            Wow, you have a firm grasp on the obvious. You have your opinion, I have mine. That's how these opinion threads work.

                            And yes, you still sound like an idiot.
                            Kuha'o - Kela - Koa


                              The 3 of 9.

                              My body still hurts from when Deus stabbed me.
                              Originally posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
                              "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".



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