Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

BJJ Standardization (Yrkoon9 style)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    BJJ Standardization (Yrkoon9 style)

    In a fairly recent thread on Sherdog, a judoka now taking BJJ questioned the BJJ belt promotion standards and the categorization of techniques. Rather, he questioned why we don't have any. The thread can be found here:

    Does BJJ need categorised techniques & grading syllabus?

    I thought this was an interesting topic, and one that I hadn't seen discussed much on Bullshido. In particular I found the posts by Yrkoon9, a former-Sherdogger and current-Bullshidoka, to be very interesting. I felt he had the most meat to his words, and he is willing to discuss them here (I checked). And so, I am reposting his material on BJJ grading and standardization.

    Unless otherwise stated, what follows are Yrkoon9's posts:

    Yes. Standardization is needed to bring BJJ up to the next level.

    ----

    Originally posted by Dane Bramage
    Taekwondo is very standardized relative to BJJ. Does this mean they are at the next level? If so, being at the next level is meaningless and shit. If you can roll, you can roll. Plain and simple. Blackbelts are always having to prove themselves, with each time they roll. Standardization makes it so that you can sit back and enjoy your blackbelt without every having to worry if you are constantly learning and improving "hey, I have my blackbelt, I know my shit...I had to perform a 720 flying roundhouse" That's why Taekwondo will never evolve as fast as BJJ, it will only become more standardized.
    Lets look at your arguement. Blackbelts are always having to prove themselves?

    You think Helio Gracie could hold his own against a 200lbs purple belt? Not fuckin likely. So should we take away his belt? Or should we promote the purple belt?

    Standardization in terms of rank requirements and techniques would ELEVATE BJJ to a more respected level. You probably can't fathom this, but Judo players all over the world can train anywhere in the world. They do not need to know the language. Because Uchi Mata is Uchi Mata all over the world. It isn't 'that throw where you go in with a hipthrow-like entry but put your leg between their leg kinda like (Harai Ogoshi) and (Hane Goshi).' No, the throw is standardized. Everyone knows it. And they learn it as the 2nd set of throws (usually). And it is categorized in the same family as Harai and Hane.

    WAYYYY too much BJJ is trying to explain some technique, you know that sweep where you put your legs like this and then lift them up and then switch your hips. Give them a name. And to a certain degree BJJ has had to do this, ie. the scissor sweep. Pretty much everyone knows what this means. Same thing with the Americana. etc etc.

    Now in terms of ABILITY of course there will be some fluctuation. You cannot hold a 65 year old man to the same standards of ability as an 18 year old kid with regards to 'how many people can he tap out'. But some standard needs to be enforced. Instructors shouldn't promote to blue belt just because some guy can tap out some whites and other blues. That guy may only know 1 sweep, 2 armlocks, and 2 chokes. He doesn't have the TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE to pass to blue belt. For instance, at my blue belt I demonstrated something like 6 throws, 6 sweeps, 6 guard passes, 6 armlocks, etc AND some self defense and sparring. A purple (should) know more than a blue, etc etc. Should those be the ONLY requirements for promotion? NO OF COURSE NOT. But they should be able demonstrate KNOWLEDGE about the art, not just the ability to tap others out.

    The standards of measurement can and SHOULD be regulated and enforced. There are too many self-promoted types in unregulated systems. Too many factions. And it is hindering the growth and evolution of the sport.

    ----
    Originally posted by RollingKneeBar
    So if you know all the submissions that a black belt should know but can't tap out a white belt you should still be a black belt? Thats the best thing about BJJ your tested on practical application in most circumstances (seminar belts, don't get me started there). I could know a million techniques but if I can't practically apply them they don't mean shit.
    Don't be a fucking idiot.

    Once again - *I* could crush Helio Gracie. Should I be a black belt, or should he *NOT* be one? And furthermore, there are NON BJJ people who have tapped out BJJ black belts, should they then be promoted to Black belt, knowing NOTHING of the art?

    Its quite obvious that the heirarchal model is not absolute.

    Nobody is saying that promotion should be based solely on technical knowledge. GOT IT YOU FUCKING IDIOTS?!?!? But there is an inherent weakness in not having a standard across the board.

    ----
    Originally posted by samr
    If you look at the lack of evolution in TMA's it should be apparent the inherent weakness IN standardization.
    Can anyone tell me the requirements for blue belt?

    Anyone? Anyone at all?

    And are those requirements pretty standard? So that you KNOW if someone is/should be a blue belt?

    No. You can't tell me that. And that is the problem. There is no consistency.

    The only real 'measurement' of the skill in any particular belt is the ASSUMED ability for higher belts to beat lower belts. And this is a FLAWED system. If promotion is based sheerly on the ability to tap out lower or equal belts there is no quantified base of knowledge, only the ability to tap people. Therefore larger, more athletic, younger people have an advantage.

    THE HEIRARCHAL MODEL IS FLAWED.

    How does the 150lbs 58 year old white belt get to blue belt? How exactly will he do that when there are 20 year old white belts that will simply crush him with youth and strength, no matter what his skill level is. He will never be able to compete with the blue belts. Should he never be promoted, based sheerly on his ability to tap people out? I use this example because we had this guy. And he quit because our school is based on this model.

    Now once again lets take Helios example. He's close to a hundred years old. You think he can tap out a 200lbs purple belt? No. He will simply get crushed. He's too old and frail to hang with the young studs. So if belt level is based on the ability to tap out lower belts he should be demoted, shouldn't he? Or do we realize that his KNOWLEDGE takes the place of that ability to a CERTAIN degree?

    Obviously there is a problem in thinking that all purples should be able to tap all blues and all browns to tap all purples, etc. It doesn't work that way. Because we all know some shitty higher belts, and some extaordanary lower belts. So again, obviously that hierarchal model is flawed.

    Again, if all that is required is the ability to 'roll'. Then we should be handing out belts the second a wrestler walks in the door. And the Judo guys. Don't forget the Sambo people. Oh, and the host of pure submission wrestlers who have never done a day of BJJ in their lives. But they can tap blues, so they must be blue belt level.

    No. That is sheer nonsense. There should be some standard of technical expertise common to all belt levels. That is to say, a blue belt from one school should be familiar with a standard so that his blue belt is equal to other blue belts. This may not be the case with his ability to tap people, but his knowledge of technique is there. I have been to a lot of schools and seen blue belts without a SINGLE throw. I mean NONE. That is bullshit. By blue belt you should have at least 1 throw or takedown. I have seen others that know 8 or more throws. Where is the standard? Obviously blue belt #1 has been gipped. Blue belt #1 may know 10 chokes and 10 armbars but blue belt #2 only knows 3. Something is wrong here.

    The method used is most schools is to simply award the belt when the instructor thinks you are ready. Now come on. This is WIDE FUCKING OPEN to all kinds of bullshit. Selling belts comes to mind. But mostly the problem is one instructors idea of what it takes is different than anothers. And so you will have a HUGE variance of skill between people of equal ability and belt levels. And who keeps track of these belts? The CBJJF is supposed to. But very few students are actually registered. Who is to say who is what belt? With some form of standardization and governing body it would be possible to KNOW that purple belt is actually a purple belt. Or at worst, know that black belt is a black belt.

    Now obviously the standardization that people are looking for is NOT the basis for promotion. Let me say that again for the FUCKING IDIOTS. It is not the basis for promotion. Rather they are the guidelines and requirements that should be common to all students at a particular level. That won't mean you are automatically promoted once you know the techniques. It is still at the instructors discretion. But seeing that a student knows some throws, some armlocks, etc and can actually perform them outside of sparring and GOD FORBID they actually be able to describe what the fuck they are supposed to be doing. For example - the scissor sweep, pretty common. Triangle choke. Again pretty common. AND IT HELPS THE INSTUCTOR AS WELL AS THE STUDENT. What is needed is that labelling system to be universal. You may not realize it but this is happening as we speak, but its happening to slowly and is not universal.

    Like I said earlier, trying to describe a technique is much more time consuming than simply calling it by its name. I shouldnt have to say, you know - that shoulder lock with the leg where you rotate around and it can be used as a sweep or submission, blah blah blah. I should be able to say, Omoplata. And you know exactly what I am talking about.

    Again, is it right that someone could be promoted to blue without knowing a single throw? In many peoples eyes it is wrong, in others thats fine. Maybe 3 throws? 3 basic standard ones. 5 armlocks? Who knows. Im not here to suggest the curriculum. Im here to say that there should be one. A standard. Not a LIMITING standard. Just a baseline.

    Now there is NO arguement to be made that standardization will inhibit creativity, as people have suggested. First of all there is a baseline that should be established, as I outlined earlier. Not the end all be all of lists, but a baseline. Whether a blue belt knows the basics will not restrict him from knowing the advanced stuff as well. That would be like saying, oh he can ONLY learn 3 throws. No. He will learn as many as he wants. And can mess with them all he wants. Change them, modify them for his body type, and put them together in any fashion he wants.

    Now everyone wants to compare this radical change to TKD. And that is fucking stupid. If you are going to compare anything compare it to Judo. And then of course, try to know what you are talking about. In Judo the belts are divided into knowledge circles based around 5 throws each. Now of course there will COUNTLESS variations of these throws, as well as supplemental groundwork. But the assumed knowledge is these 5 throws. They have names. Just like in BJJ where we have Kimura, Omoplata, Triangle, etc etc. And these Judoka can go anywhere in the world to train and when the instructor shows hopping Unchimata, the student may not know hopping, but he knows Uchimata and has a base. He may not know that Uchimata to KoUchi works well but finds it in sparring. And then finds that an ankle pick after the KoUchi works well for him. He can use his own creativity. He is not LIMITED to the throws of that belt, but the instructor can look over at him and see the green belt and know the student has at least knowledge of 16 throws. The student may kick black belt ass during sparring, but what measure is that of his technical knowledge? Not much. Now people may think that Judo is a static art, that its only 40 throws to black belt. Nope. Judo is constantly evolving. New variations are being introduced daily. European Judo differs from American Judo which is different than Japanese Judo ad nauseum. They have common techniques, but their individual style is different. And it certainly isnt static. The influence of BJJ and wrestling to Judo is undeniable and we are seeing the evolution of groundwork across the board again. Now one Judoka black belt may kick another black belts ass up and down the mat. But one thing is sure, they both are knowledgeable in 40 throws. They may not be experts in each one, and they may not know every variation that the other person does, and not specialize the same, but they should both have a common set of knowledge.

    Okay, I got off on a tangent there. But just to sum this up. The hierarchal model is flawed. There should standards in labelling techniques (at least common ones). There should be some standards of technical knowledge for all belts, but that should not be the basis of promotion.

    ----
    Originally posted by Zest BJJ
    Requirements for Blue Machado Australia

    Demonstrate the following:

    Basic guard / mount / guard circiut
    keep mount drill

    4 sweeps
    4 chokes
    4 armbars
    4 variations figure 4
    6 escapes
    4 takedowns
    2 basic combination techniques
    10 3 minute wrestles against fresh guys
    Originally posted by The_Chillisicle
    Pedro Sauer is also trying to get a system like that as well ..

    But along with the certain moves you have to have a certain number of calss hours to obtain the next belt .

    For example Blue to purple has 88 moves , plus 400 hours of class time !
    400 from blue to purple, or white to purple?

    I was trying to work out the math. 2hrs per class, 3 classes a week X 52 weeks a year = 300 hours (approximately). 1.3 years from blue to purple on that schedule.

    I am certainly not the end-all-be-all of authority but IMHO blue belt should really be the hump belt. The belt that really breaks you in terms of staying with BJJ. It should be the longest belt. Like 2-3 years. Because, honestly its easy to get blue. Purple on the other hand should be test of heart, to see if you really want to stick with BJJ. Most purples I know went on much further they are either brown or black now. But I have known sooooo many blues that quit. Ooops tangent!

    Anyways, 1.3 years seems like too short a time for blue belts. I really think blue belt is where you start to develop your game and do the majority of your learning. Just my opinion though.

    ----

    That ends the quotes.

    Here's my only say on the subject so far:
    Originally posted by Aesopian
    I would like more formal names for techniques to make discussion easier, but we don't need "The Official 47 Moves of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" or anything like that.
    I'll write more of my own thoughts later, since this post is too long already.

    I just thought these posts were interesting, and thought it might get some interesting replies here than on Sherdog.

    #2
    I am flattered. Re-reading that stuff I can see I got a little bit upset and strayed off my train of thought. I could cut some of that stuff out and expand a little bit more on other parts.

    Hahaha I really came off as an asshole in some of those quotes. Awesome. Thanks.

    Comment


      #3
      Good writing

      Comment


        #4
        If BJJ wants to take up a different model of standardisation - there are two potential traps, and both would bring politics into BJJ.

        Firstly, someone has to write up and standardise the techniques and requirements. The problem is - who will do it, and if someone disagrees, will it fracture BJJ into several smaller unions?

        Look at Judo for more or less the most successful model. Most people will take their lead from the Kodokan, it being Kano's school its raison d'etre being the function of administering Judo. Yet all day long, all you hear is smart alecs crying about Kosen Judo and all kinds of nonsense.

        Could any of you see a situation where full scale war doesn't erupt between Gracie Academy, the CBJJ and virtually everyone else over who gets to write the common BJJ syllabus and standards?

        Secondly, Yrkoon9's thing about the naming of techniques is something that I had never considered. It's one of the best ideas going - and would make BJJ far more accessible and international. The problem is - that's not what everyone wants.

        For a start, what language is going to be used? You could go for English, or Brazilian Portuguese. There may be a translation problem, but one would surely have to be settled on. You can't have techniques with two names.

        Hold on a second - why not go for Japanese? All the techniques already have Japanese names, and most instructors use the Japanese names for throwing techniques. This would surely be a third viable option that would also dredge up a lot of baggage.

        I agree with Yrkoon9 that the Judo model works beautifully for Judo - but Judo has been standardised from a very early stage. Also, there are a great many people that are fundamentally opposed to any kind of formalisation of BJJ. They like the "promotion when you can tap your peers" system for it total lack of institution. I can see those people going off and forming their own little union as well.

        Would the final result not resemble a situation that we have at the moment with all the associations basically doing their own thing?

        Comment


          #5
          We use the English/Portuguese names for many of the techniques at my dojo (e.g. omoplata, kimura, keylock, etc).

          The naming of techniques is a difficult thing. I saw this problem in Aikido. Federation people, Ki-society people, Yoshinkan people, etc. all use different names for the same techniques. Also, many of the advanced techniques don't even have a name. They only go by the principle (e.g. kokyu nage).

          I think too much standardization could ruin BJJ though. I kind of like the system the way it is now, because if someone's a blue belt, you REALLY know it. As long as people continue to compete and strive to become better at their technique, it shouldn't be a problem. The only benefit I really see with standardizing everything would be if you were to change dojos, especially in another country.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Ippatsu182
            We use the English/Portuguese names for many of the techniques at my dojo (e.g. omoplata, kimura, keylock, etc).
            How long has Kimura been an English or Portuguese word?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Beneath Contempt
              How long has Kimura been an English or Portuguese word?
              Although, it's technically a Japanese family name, it's not the name of a Japanese technique. Therefore, it's not actually a "Japanese" term. It was named by Brazilians, therefore I would consider it a Portuguese term, even though it's probably not in the Portuguese dictionary.
              Last edited by Ippatsu182; 1/11/2005 8:50am, . Reason: unnecessary information

              Comment


                #8
                On the issue of standard names, the mix of Portuguese, English and Japanese causes a good deal of confusion for beginners (myself included), as evidenced by threads like this:

                Oh Em Gee... which is a Kimura and Americana?

                We also get another great Yrkoon post from that thread:
                Originally posted by Yrkoon9
                So now we have...

                Judo - Ude Garami
                BJJ - Americana, Kimura
                American style - figure 4, keylock, hammerlock.

                You are going to have to be a fuckin linguist to get all this shit down correctly. BTW - use Japanese Judo terminology for your BJJ. Its easiest. Nothing worse than hearing BJJ guys say - you know that one move where you have the guys arm like this, then you throw your leg over and then turn like that....OH YOU MEAN HIZA GATAME!?!?! Just say it motherfucker so I dont spend 5 minutes trying to figure out what the fuck you are explaining. Thats one area that Judo > BJJ ! In Judo, the techniques are classified formally and are universal. In BJJ its a fuckin hodgepodge of mixed Portugese, English, Japanese and slang so you never know what the hell they are talking about.
                I add to this list of figure-foured bent armlocks the names "chicken wing" and "American armbar".

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Beneath Contempt
                  If BJJ wants to take up a different model of standardisation - there are two potential traps, and both would bring politics into BJJ.
                  Just to clear up confusion. There is already a lot of politics in BJJ. Perhaps standarization might create a stronger link between the factions. Don't know. But I can tell you first hand the politics of BJJ is complex and frustrating.

                  Firstly, someone has to write up and standardise the techniques and requirements. The problem is - who will do it, and if someone disagrees, will it fracture BJJ into several smaller unions?
                  I think its being done right now. We just don't recognize it. What I am talking about isnt just naming all the techniques or creating a universal syllabus that everyone will follow.

                  For instance, the names of many techniques are universal. Omoplata, Mata Leo, DelaRiva guard, spiderguard, etc. Im just saying we get down to it and put some effort into the standardization to help things along.

                  Could any of you see a situation where full scale war doesn't erupt between Gracie Academy, the CBJJ and virtually everyone else over who gets to write the common BJJ syllabus and standards?
                  Like I said earlier, instead of looking at the negative maybe look at the positive. Maybe we could unite the already factioning bodies.

                  Secondly, Yrkoon9's thing about the naming of techniques is something that I had never considered. It's one of the best ideas going - and would make BJJ far more accessible and international. The problem is - that's not what everyone wants.
                  Fuck those people. Greedy little self centered people who want to keep 'their' art secret have no place in my world.


                  They like the "promotion when you can tap your peers" system for it total lack of institution.
                  This is one of the FUNDAMENTAL problems with BJJ. The hierarchal model of domination. Unfortunately it doesn't work the way it is intended.

                  As I stated above there are a LOT of people who could tap Helio Gracie. Gimme a break, hes almost a hundred years old and all of a hundred pounds. A 25yr old 200lbs purple belt is gonna crush him bad. But that DOES NOT mean that the purple belt should be a black belt, or that Helio should be stripped of his black belt.

                  What it shows is that being able to 'beat' lower belts is not the end-all be-all of standarization across the belt ranks. *** There are other factors involved*** Let me re-emphasize that for all the idiotic reactionaries who might have read that. There are other factors involved.

                  For instance, how do we promote our 58 year old white belt? He is never gonna beat the 20 year olds that started with him. He simply does not have the physical tools anymore to 'dominate' people of equal technical skill. They will get blue belt, and he will remain a white belt. Soon he will be 60 and they will be 22. They will be moving toward purple belt and he will still be unable to keep up, the gap getting even wider simply due to the physical demands of JJ. Some might argue that technique surpasses any physical limitations - but those that know will call bullshit on that.

                  So in terms of promotion and hierarchy if you can't hang, you don't 'deserve' your belt. And if you can't 'beat' your peers you don't advance. Now this isn't to say that a guy with Palsy in a wheelchair can become a blackbelt if he sticks with it long enough. No. That isn't what I am saying. What I am saying is there needs to be some compromise in the hierarchal model that I am saying is FLAWED. And perhaps to SOME degree technical knowledge can replace raw physical ability. Both of which are neccessary to be successfull in BJJ. But today, raw physical ability is how you are judged.

                  Now we all know blue belts that can tap purples. And maybe some browns. We have all seen those nutty white belts that come in and tap everyone. And we have seen or heard of brown/black belts who got schooled by purples. Is that a problem? If it is a problem who do we blame, and how do we solve it? Is it a simple case of raw physical ability overcoming technical knowledge, or the other way around? Is it a case that someone is being held back from promotion, or that others were promoted too quickly? Hmmmm. Nobody can tell. Why? Because the standards of BJJ are vague.

                  Again I ask you, what does it take to become a blue belt?

                  Nobody knows. Why? Because there are no standards. Most will say, if you can tap the whites and hang with the blues you are a blue belt. The thing about that is if you get a collegiate wrestler with some submission wrestling experience you are going to have that person. And he won't know ANY BJJ. He should now be a blue belt simply because he can tap people? Ummm no. He has no technical skill in the art - only raw physical ability. So maybe some standards need to be set. You need to know some throws, some sweeps, some armlocks and chokes. Im not saying you need to know XXX throw and YYY sweep. Im saying that there needs to be some kind of number, and quantative value involved. A measurement that can be applied across the board. But as it stands there are a bunch of intangible variables that are unique to each school that are qualifications for skill ranking.

                  I, however, am NOT determining those standards. There are much more qualified people out there who can make those decisions. I am simply addressing the obvious problems.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Did you get banned for that thread yrkoon?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Just a guidline?

                      Been lurking for a month, enjoy this forum. First time post so hello :5hi:

                      I tend to agree that some type of standard needs to be set, but not one that is as specific a Judo or other TMA's

                      Why couldn't a guideline be circulated starting right here on this forum that maybe 60 - 80% here agree on then go spread it among the other forums?

                      It doesn't matter if everyone follows it to the letter, but as a general guide you could compare to others that you associate with (here on this forum and other forums) not to mention your gym(s) just where you stand in the grand scheme of things.

                      That is what I find great about BJJ and SubWrestling it allows for a ton of personal growth and interpretation but still holds you accountable on the mat.

                      I think time on the mat is a big part of it. You need to have lots of experience with all types of opponent's to find your strengths and weakness. Wining matches, being able to tap Blues or Purples or Browns depending on your level is a huge part of it also. The guideline I always strive for is hanging with the Bule belts at the moment since that is the level I am working towards, so I would hope that those same blues would have had the same requirement that I have.

                      Technical knowledge is also very important but is should be set at a minimum not an average. The point I am making here is if I work on the scissor sweep and say the leg lift reversal, but another BJJer works on that and 2 other sweep/reversals who is right. The point is can you make them work on the mat against a variety of opponent's.

                      A general guide so you can go through a "Blue Blet Syllabus" would be great that most followed. It must however stay true to the roots of BJJ and be tested on the mat.

                      For instance the example of the 50yr. old rolling with the 20 somethings. Sure he may get beat 90% of the time do to slower reflex, gassing, blah, blah, blah. Did he hang with them though? Not tap them, but did he roll for 30 sec. 1 minute, 5 minutes? If he knows the material, if he is in shape for his age, if he is hanging with those better athletes by youth only well shit he earned the rank. How did he fair against others his age? If any were there.

                      There are great fighters, coaches, teachers, etc... the mat just holds your technique and skill/physical shape accountable.

                      Too long a post for my 1st one?

                      Mikey

                      Comment


                        #12
                        No.

                        I got banned for TTT a predictions thread that other people had already bumped. I just quoted some whacky people who said that you were retarded if you thought Gomi would outbox Pulver. I didnt even say who won. Sorta strange because OTHER people on the same thread didn't even get carded, much less banned for doing much worse. Truth be told, I was thinking the moderator had it out for me because of other politically posts from way before. Well...that and I push buttons people don't like to be pushed.

                        Its a gift really. To be systematically banned from every message board is the eventual outcome. Im really suprised I wasn't banned from saw-jj.com they got a fascist moderator looking to recreate nazi Germany.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TapTapMikey
                          For instance the example of the 50yr. old rolling with the 20 somethings. Sure he may get beat 90% of the time do to slower reflex, gassing, blah, blah, blah. Did he hang with them though? Not tap them, but did he roll for 30 sec. 1 minute, 5 minutes? If he knows the material, if he is in shape for his age, if he is hanging with those better athletes by youth only well shit he earned the rank. How did he fair against others his age? If any were there.
                          Well lets qualify that. He is 58. Thats real real close to 60. Might as well say 60.

                          He could 'hang' with the other white belts. But tap them? Only the newest and shittiest of white belts. And certainly not anyone bigger than himself.

                          In shape? Oh hell yes. He was the guy that showed up early and stayed late. He could go 15-20 minutes straight sparring. He never got exhausted off the mat. Probably because he never missed class. But his injuries racked up and never left. Every finger and toe seemed taped up.

                          The thing was there WERE no other 58 year olds. The instructor is 40, Im 33. Thats the closest in his age group. And unfortunately he was judged in his performance against us. Which was discouraging to say the least.

                          And he is on hiatus. Thats what I am hoping it is. More than likely he quit. He hasnt trained with us in almost 2 months. Why? Discouragement probably. Perhaps he didn't feel he could 'make' blue belt for the last group of guys that tested in December. Maybe he felt he would be held to the same standards. Nobody likes to be the weakest link. And it might be humiliating being the 'blue belt' who gets tapped by whites. I dunno exactly. I know it had something to do with his progress, the belt test, and his slower learning curve than the rest of the class simply due to his age.

                          Sad really. I really liked this guy. He had heart. Just not enough heart to compensate for this whacky BJJ hierarchal model.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Yrkoon9
                            Well lets qualify that. He is 58. Thats real real close to 60. Might as well say 60.

                            He could 'hang' with the other white belts. But tap them? Only the newest and shittiest of white belts. And certainly not anyone bigger than himself.

                            In shape? Oh hell yes. He was the guy that showed up early and stayed late. He could go 15-20 minutes straight sparring. He never got exhausted off the mat. Probably because he never missed class. But his injuries racked up and never left. Every finger and toe seemed taped up.

                            The thing was there WERE no other 58 year olds. The instructor is 40, Im 33. Thats the closest in his age group. And unfortunately he was judged in his performance against us. Which was discouraging to say the least.

                            And he is on hiatus. Thats what I am hoping it is. More than likely he quit. He hasnt trained with us in almost 2 months. Why? Discouragement probably. Perhaps he didn't feel he could 'make' blue belt for the last group of guys that tested in December. Maybe he felt he would be held to the same standards. Nobody likes to be the weakest link. And it might be humiliating being the 'blue belt' who gets tapped by whites. I dunno exactly. I know it had something to do with his progress, the belt test, and his slower learning curve than the rest of the class simply due to his age.

                            Sad really. I really liked this guy. He had heart. Just not enough heart to compensate for this whacky BJJ hierarchal model.
                            Well I feel for the guy. Its hard to get the shit beat out of you everynight as a man in his 30's (34 myself) by the 20 somethings at least you are on an equal playing field strength & conditioning wise and will improve, I could only hope I live long enough to actualy practice at age 58.

                            That is also one of the great things also though about how BJJ is set up and it worked. It weeded out the weak link and made the team stronger. I know it sucks for him (58yr. old) and it may suck for you and others as well to see him go. It did however ensure that someone who couldn't hold up to the standard of blue belt on the mat didn't get. He may be physically fit, he may know the drills and the techniques, he may smoke the warm-up and conditioning. However he couldn't pull them off on the mat and that is what counts.

                            Like I said before the unique thing about BJJ is that it holds the practitioner accountable on the mat. Just like the MMA crowd holds the fighters accountable in the ring.

                            Imagine if he did get his blue belt because the coach/instructor felt sorry for him. How many potential students (talent) would you lose when they see how crappy one of your blue belts are? How would that make the other blue belts feel about him? Wouldn't a division come about in the school? May as well get stripped blue belts for kids and the elderly and become even more like a McDojo.

                            I am with you it sucks for that guy. Maybe it is a loss for the gym and not a gain, I dont know. What I do know is your instructor held true to the ideal of "prove it on the mat" and it worked regardless of how heartless it seemed. Its why it is there.

                            I am all for a curriculum "guideline" with set names and drills for the majority to follow. It does need to be "proven on the mat" always though.

                            Not everyone can be a BJJ Black Belt or even a Blue Belt or somewhere in between. That is exactly why it works and grows.

                            Always testing, never conforming to a set standard.

                            Edit for major spelling errors, screw the small ones :new_321:
                            Last edited by TapTapMikey; 1/11/2005 12:30pm, .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Yrkoon9:

                              Ok, lets say we skip all the politics. Would you be in favour of a judo-type model where you have a regional contest/course - and at said course you get loads of black belts turn up - from 1st dan to 5th dan. You know that some of them are 3rd dan because they are outstanding fighters. You know that some are 5th dan because they have "served" judo by training i-don't-know-how-many children in their own time, and there are some people who are just good at kata.

                              As you say - there are some judoka that are no longer good fighters - and for that we use the "university degree" explanation of the belt rank (ie you knew something big at the time, but not necessarily now).

                              But would you want to have BJJ guys promoted all on the same criteria? What I am getting at is - would you say there should be more than one way of getting a blue belt, or is a fixed combination of fighting, knowledge of technique and time served the only way? Otherwise, you get the judo situation where dan grades are fixed, but the reasons behind them are not.

                              Comment

                              Collapse

                              Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                              Working...
                              X