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Fighting to win in TKD

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    Fighting to win in TKD

    So I was reading some old TKD bashing threads in the archives, and it seems that most people are of the opinion that there are two kinds of TKDers:

    1. the type that doesn't like to spar, or isn't interested in real combat, or those that train under WTF rules and spar WTF style

    2. the mythical "hardcore" TKDers that train to fight and avoid "flashy" WTF kicks.

    I'm not really going to go into detail describing these archetypes; most people here know exactly what I'm talking about because they're the same ones who chirp in everytime a TKD thread comes up.

    Now the criticism of WTF schools are the lack of hand techniques and a low/non-existent guard, as well as an emphasis on "point-scoring" techniques rather than actually effective ones.

    Here's the question I pose to thee:

    Is it wrong, if I train in a WTF TKD school, understand that what I'm participating in is a game and not real combat, and am AWARE of what effective techniques are (thus making me type 2, by default) and yet fight to win in WTF competition by utilising said flashy or weak-but-fast point scoring techniques?

    Is it wrong, under the specific rules of the event that I participate in, to find in the most effective way possible, rather than the most "realistic"?

    Essentially I'm trying to ask if people here think there's a real problem with fighting to WIN in a WTF competition match, rather than fighting in a more realistic, grounded manner. People here are always passing judgement; they're always saying things like "if I was in there I'd be throwing Thai kicks". And to be fair, if the match was a NHB fight, they'd be right on, and I agree with them.

    But to be honest, if you really wanted to win, would you really be out there doing Thai kicks that realistically do a lot of damage, but don't score you a whole lot of points? Probably not. Bear in mind, WTF TKDers fight to WIN; which means they're also looking most of the time for quick KO opportunities. There's no faster way to win a fight than kicking someone in the head, so it's not like they're not trying to hurt each other when they're on the mat.

    In competition: is it alright to fight in a manner that would yield the highest chance of success (eg. point scoring techniques), or would you still persist in the "high road" and fighting "effectively" (eg. keeping a high guard, less bouncing, less kicks more power)?
    Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all shit like that! -theoutsider

    Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

    The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

    dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

    Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
    I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
    what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone

    #2
    I think even if you are fighting in point sparring you should fight using NHB/Pankration rules. The other person can not score a point if you break his leg and choke him out, that's a scientific fact. In reality I think there's nothing wrong with WTF style competitions, the problem probably stems from people that think WTF style sparring is how people should fight, people that think their point fighting prowess will help them in a real fight, or people that think that all point fighters believer the former. I think there is an article called mindset vs. reality, it's really good. Kind of goes into this topic about this point fighter that thought he could fight using point fighting techniques.
    Very good article:
    http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...ewreview&id=15
    Last edited by ojgsxr6; 1/10/2005 1:03pm, .

    Comment


      #3
      People will always try and find the ways to compete so as to best exploit the rules. No reason they shouldn't. No reason if you're competing under those rules you shouldn't either. In fact if that is where you want to be competing, you'd be a jackass not to.

      Problems arise if those rules result in unrealistic "fighting" in an arena that is supposed to represent fighting.

      In other words it's the rules not the fighters.

      Comment


        #4
        i think that if you enter a competition you really should fight to win. what's the point of entering a competition if not to win right? that said, i don't see a problem in fighting to win using the WTF ruleset...

        ...but only in situations where your opponent is also compliant with the WTF ruleset.

        in other arenas, the use of such strategies might not really be the most sound. like you said lifetime as long as the practitioner knows that what they do in competition cannot really work outside of it and (most importantly) they TRAIN for out of tournament confrontations (i.e. NOT point sparring rules) then everything is gravy...

        Comment


          #5
          It depends on your motivations for entering a competition. I don't personally feel the need to get another crappy medal or trophy -- maybe if they were actually made of gold or something . . . Whatever, I'm an amateur. What I am interested in doing is testing my skills out against an unfamiliar opponent and when I have a higher level of nervousness than normal.

          Since this is an opportunity to further my own training, I'd rather fight in a way that is consistent with that training. If that means losing to someone who exploits an imperfect ruleset (and aren't they all?), then so be it. The point isn't to win, it's to improve. And if the other person walks away thinking that they're a better fighter just because they can kiai louder, turtle up better or cut more weight than I choose to, then it only makes the world a safer place.

          Comment


            #6
            Unfortunately the techniques most likely to 'win' in TKD competition are oftentimes the least effective in terms of self defense. Jumping backfists and ridgehands along with the quick sidekick/roundkick combo's are what you need to get trophies. But they are completely counterproductive in terms of self-defense.

            But do what makes you HAPPIEST. The hours you spend enjoying yourself training and competing will far outweigh the remote possibility that you might someday get into a situation where you will have any opportunity to use anything that resembles martial arts techniques.

            Comment


              #7
              two words ...

              olympic medal ...
              totoro-san ... world sushi munching champion ...

              Comment


                #8
                All contenders please raise their hands.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I see no problem with fighting to win with WTF rules. I mean, most sport fencers realise that they aren't learning real swordsmanship and they don't receive much flak. So provided the TKD competitors realise that they're athletes, not fighters, then everything's dandy.

                  That said, I usually adopt a "hybrid" style when I myself compete. I keep my hands high, try not to bounce too much use at least some punches. It can be counter-productive to winning sometimes but I don't want to develop too many bad habits as I train to fight as well as to compete.
                  Dedicated to legs and the disrespecting thereof.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    just so long as you realize that being world chess champion has absolutely nothing to do with winning wars ...
                    totoro-san ... world sushi munching champion ...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Yrkoon9
                      Unfortunately the techniques most likely to 'win' in TKD competition are oftentimes the least effective in terms of self defense. Jumping backfists and ridgehands along with the quick sidekick/roundkick combo's are what you need to get trophies. But they are completely counterproductive in terms of self-defense.

                      But do what makes you HAPPIEST. The hours you spend enjoying yourself training and competing will far outweigh the remote possibility that you might someday get into a situation where you will have any opportunity to use anything that resembles martial arts techniques.
                      I don't know what you're on, but WTF point sparring is done full contact with padding. I thought that was self-explainatory.

                      The reason that I posted this thread is because of a lot of people on the boards that habitually criticise TKD sparring. Personally, I don't feel this is a problem, as it's all a learning process, and criticism can be a good thing. What really sparked me off, however, was a thread called TKD Sparring Vids (do a search) where just about everyone was advocating using more punches, with a few MT noob nutriders saying, 'rah rah, are Thai kicks legal? I'd go in there and beat some TKD ass'. Even Osiris our resident TKD claim to authenticity as a fighting art mentioned throwing punches into kick combinations for a more "authentic" fighting experience. This is not a burn, and I don't know his reasons, but I'm sure that Osiris knows there are TKD athletes out there who do just fine without using punches, for example.

                      Would you still persist in throwing in punches even at a risk of being "less effective" in a TKD sense?

                      (Btw, don't take this as me saying punches are useless in TKD. I appreciate the value of a punch as a stopping and unbalancing mechanism A WHOLE LOT because most people don't expect to see them. I just don't tend to throw them in combinations because I find that they can leave you overextended or open if you're using them to attack)
                      Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all shit like that! -theoutsider

                      Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

                      The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

                      dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

                      Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
                      I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
                      what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone

                      Comment


                        #12
                        point sparring is more of a game than a sport. whatever techniques/strategies u use to win the game should be the best. for example if a kick to the head scores two points and a takedown only scores one welll then yes kicking to the head (non STr33t L33t according to most bullshidokas) is the better thing to do

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ojgsxr6
                          I think even if you are fighting in point sparring you should fight using NHB/Pankration rules. The other person can not score a point if you break his leg and choke him out, that's a scientific fact. In reality I think there's nothing wrong with WTF style competitions, the problem probably stems from people that think WTF style sparring is how people should fight, people that think their point fighting prowess will help them in a real fight, or people that think that all point fighters believer the former. I think there is an article called mindset vs. reality, it's really good. Kind of goes into this topic about this point fighter that thought he could fight using point fighting techniques.
                          Very good article:
                          http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...ewreview&id=15
                          Ojgsxr6, I could retort with the same argument. "I think even if you are fighting in NHB/Pankration, you should fight using with absolutely no rules. The other person can not score a point if you pistol whip his ass and shoot the motherfucker in the face, that's defintely a scientific fact. In reality I think there's nothing wrong with NHB/Pankration style competitions, the problem probably stems from people that think NHB/Pankration style sparring is how people should fight in a real fight."

                          I've posted similar replies in different Point Sparring or TKD vs. the d3adly str33t threads on Bullshido. See I live in ghetto Baltimore, and if you get into some shit on the street, neither BJJ or TKD or NHB rules or whatever will save your ass. You will get shot or stabbed or both. Real fighting doesn't exist anymore. THATS the reason why all these different competitions exist. Its all a game now.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ojgsxr6
                            I think even if you are fighting in point sparring you should fight using NHB/Pankration rules. The other person can not score a point if you break his leg and choke him out, that's a scientific fact.
                            I really thought that this first statement was so outlandish that no one could possibly take it seriously. Even still I used the phrase "In reality" in my following statement hopefully conveying the fact that the first part of what I said was not in reality what I believed. Obviously I failed in that first attempt, not to mention that you probably didn't laugh, so I actually failed twice.

                            Originally posted by ojgsxr6
                            In reality I think there's nothing wrong with WTF style competitions, the problem probably stems from people that think WTF style sparring is how people should fight, people that think their point fighting prowess will help them in a real fight, or people that think that all point fighters believe the former. I think there is an article called mindset vs. reality, it's really good. Kind of goes into this topic about this point fighter that thought he could fight using point fighting techniques.
                            This on the other hand was serious, and I still believe it's a very good point. But in no place in that statement did I say that NHB/Pankration is the way people should fight. But I do believe it is closer to the reality of how people actually fight hand to hand. Maybe where you live no one fights hand to hand anymore, but we do have video evidence of people actually fighting each other without shooting or stabbing anyone, so I'm sure it happens from time to time.

                            Originally posted by EternalRage
                            See I live in ghetto Baltimore, and if you get into some shit on the street, neither BJJ or TKD or NHB rules or whatever will save your ass. You will get shot or stabbed or both. Real fighting doesn't exist anymore. THATS the reason why all these different competitions exist. Its all a game now.
                            Are you trying to invoke the power of Phil Elmore?

                            Once again Comedy:0 - OJ:1
                            Last edited by ojgsxr6; 1/10/2005 11:22pm, .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              i didnt realize u were being facetious about your first statement. actually it seems i completely misunderstood it. u must forgive me, i had a rather rough class today and i dont think my brain came away completely intact.

                              and yes youre right hand to hand fighting still happens like at frat parties or bars or watever, i suppose it somewhat depends on demographics.... the demographics around baltimore suck ass.

                              who is phil elmore? is he a spreader of buillshido... his name brings to mind a giant fat guy

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