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    Consequences of your actions?

    The vast majority of the people here "know" they can really hurt, maim, or kill someone, and probably a few of you can. I was wondering if anyone has given any thought to the possible results and consequences of really injuring someone in a fight, and how they would really handle it. And, for that matter, would they hesitate when it came time to throw the final strike, crank the submission, hold that choke longer, or slam them down on their head.

    Today, I had to scare off a lost dog from my yard. He was obviously a pet, but his collar was gone. Animal control would NOT come, and he had almsot bitten me and my mother a few times. He then started acting aggressive to my dogs (which are smaller, and female, which explains why he showed up). I had no other action than to just drive him out, or attack him. I chose to just scare him off, and he ran.

    But, he ran into the street, not the woods, and was struck by a truck.

    Think about that for a while. You never even saw that coming. One mistake, one slip and a lot can happen. Imagine a stumble during a submission hold that results in a joint bending the wrong way... maybe even yours! Or striking someone and either killing a man with a pre-existing brain condition, or hitting someone in the temple a bit too hard. Or a choke that resulted in death? Yes, its rare, but can happen.

    That dog got up and RAN off about a minute later, thankfully. Both he and I lucked out. He's okay, and my psychological state is still somewhat stable. Its still hard to forget a big fluffy chow getting smacked, audiably, by a truck, flying through the air, and yapping after falling in the gutter (which saved him from being ran over). Even though he was a danger, and I had no choice, this was still the last thing I had thought of.

    I'm not saying you can't use what you know, but you have to be prepared for ALL consequences of your actions. A dose of humility and choosing to not act too hastily (but not hesitantly) will help a lot of people you may injure, and yourself from people that may injure you. All I did was SCARE it and look what happened. Imagine if I got my bat or practiced my low-kick on his head? He could be dead, I could be injured, who knows?

    If anyone is curious, I fired off a paintballgun into the air to scare him away. the noise apparently terrified him.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

    #2
    Absolutely. I do not want to hurt anyone if it can be avoided. I have nothing to prove.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

    Comment


      #3
      Obviously it would be nice if everyone got along and no one had to fight, but we live in reality. If you need to use your stuff in a situation, you better go all out, because the other person is going to. I would never hold back in reality. You can have remorse later, after the other guy/girl can no longer cause your life to END!

      Comment


        #4
        The Shaolin sure did have good edicts:

        "run before you fight
        fight before you injure
        injure before you maim
        maim before you kill"

        Comment


          #5
          I think about that a lot.
          Reasonable force is very tricky.
          If the attacker is a clear danger, then your justified in defending yourself with heavy force.

          But what if its a drunk teenager who doesn't present a real threat, but just keeps getting back up because he's too drunk and stupid to stay down. Are you then justified in making sure he can't physically get back up?

          Its hard.



          --------
          What would happen if a one hand clapper attempted to stop a tree falling in the woods when no one else was around?
          --------
          The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
          - Pizdoff

          Comment


            #6
            Its relieving to know that at least some people consider the person being pummeled, and that people understand there is more to the loser than just being on-camera long enough to look beaten up and the victor to gloat.

            Many TMA's have as one of their tennants something about reluctance to harm or take life - I've always perceived it as either dillusion that they could, or clever marketing. If they believe they can, or actually can, its still something good to have, isn't it?

            <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
            <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
            Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

            Comment


              #7
              For me hurting animals are hard. I try my best to not cause any perement injury this stems from a belief of mine but thats for another thread.

              I would think of in the term of Karma, if something picks a fight with you, disable it, not aim to kill or maim the person but disable
              the person, if they get hurt badly then thats Karma. A friend of mine had a habit of picking on little guys and out casts, one day a kid did something about a short little person too and my friend got hurt badly, not on purpose of the person defending himself, but my friends own fault for starting a fight near the stairs. He would of been winded any where else on flat ground, but he fell backwards and got hurt (broken arm), Karma.

              "A California man has been taken to court for stalking Anna Nicole Smith. The man has been charged with invasion of privacy, illegal trespassing, and having really bad taste."-Conan

              Comment


                #8
                Anyone that has the real potential to easily hurt someone has most likely spent hours and hours fighting with trained fighters, who are much more of a challenge and a threat than some out of control idiot.

                Training overrides aggression. I can't hit someone out of anger, because every way that I can hit someone effectively is a trained attribute. It's something I've been taught to do, and use appropriately. Much like many of you wouldn't repair a computer out of anger, or get pissed off and balance your checkbook.

                The mental clarity needed to excel at hand to hand combat supercedes doing it out of anger. Indeed, anger and emotion are a detriment to effective technique.

                Comment


                  #9
                  agent white:

                  do you really believe that training overrides aggression? i mean in a pre-fight situation you actually may be calmer than someone untrained. you maybe try harder to avoid a fight because you know the consequences better.

                  but when you're in a fight for life i don't believe you really have the time to choose non-lethal attacks. you don't have the time to think.

                  there's a situation i've witnessed two times so far: sometimes in escrima class we set up a multiple attackers scenario where you have to stand there armed with a knife (or stick or both or bare-hands) and encircled by opponents. it's not really multiple attackers because mostly only one attacks at a time and you know where he comes from. anyway. i get every time very uncomfortable watching it (if i'm the defender it's something different - i don't have time to care). these people don't act like humans anymore once the action gets intense. they really resemble more of a cornered animal than a human being. it's just a fucking strange feeling watching them fight.

                  therefore i'm really not sure if you're able to act reasonably in a real fight where you're life is threatened ....

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I agree silent, a lot of shit flys out the window when you're in danger.

                    Even when the fights not that serious adrenaline causes you to forget a lot of what you've learned.

                    I personally take anyone who claims they're a "Highly trained action man" with a large pinch of salt.

                    Always reminds me of Bill Paxton's charater in True Lies.

                    ----------------------------------------------------------
                    The story of a woman on the morning of a war,
                    Remind me if you will exactly what we're fighting for.
                    "You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
                    YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior

                    "Sport ? That kind of thing's not my bag baby!" - Sammy Franco

                    "This system was developed with the help of notible BJJ fighter Ribbon Muchado." - "Sifu" Anthony Iglesias

                    Comment


                      #11
                      agent white:

                      do you really believe that training overrides aggression? i mean in a pre-fight situation you actually may be calmer than someone untrained. you maybe try harder to avoid a fight because you know the consequences better.
                      From my experience, someone who is trained will never escalate things with another trained person in the street. Too much control at work.

                      An untrained person is 99 percent of the time the person you will be facing. Anyone with a decent amount of training can tell you that fighting someone who is untrained is about the same as fighting someone on their first day of class. You can very easily hand them a serious ass kicking and almost feel guilty for doing it. If you can't,well, you probably suck.

                      Be careful in trying to avoid a fight. Trying to talk your way out of things makes the other person think you're scared. This can give them the confidence to take a swing.

                      If it doesn't look like you are going to get out of it, TAKE THE FIRST SWING. Better to control the situation and do things on your terms if they are inevitable. Fuck self defense if it means being a target til someone else is ready to go.


                      but when you're in a fight for life i don't believe you really have the time to choose non-lethal attacks. you don't have the time to think.
                      Against an untrained opponent you definately have the time to and choice to control your attacks. You have plenty of time to think. If you don't, then you aren't much better than Mr. Untrained. If you think you can execute a "lethal attack" quicker than something basic like a jab or palm strike then you're either blinding fast and strangely trained, or trained poorly. We learn the basics in martial arts first because the basics are the most important things to use in real fights. Doing a jumping spinning roundhouse kick well won't win the fight if you can't throw a hook punch.


                      there's a situation i've witnessed two times so far: sometimes in escrima class we set up a multiple attackers scenario where you have to stand there armed with a knife (or stick or both or bare-hands) and encircled by opponents. it's not really multiple attackers because mostly only one attacks at a time and you know where he comes from. anyway. i get every time very uncomfortable watching it (if i'm the defender it's something different - i don't have time to care). these people don't act like humans anymore once the action gets intense. they really resemble more of a cornered animal than a human being. it's just a fucking strange feeling watching them fight.
                      A scenario you won't see on the street. On the street there is always one. One leader. One talker. One guy who starts and the rest jump him. Attack him first, and don't wait for him. He is the signal for the others. Pop him good, hard, and sudden and the rest of the boys will lose their courage. So will he.

                      If you lose your technique, training and skill in moments of duress (multiple attacker sparring, which is pretty unrealistic BTW) then you need to train more. In a street fight, unless you're already going to lose, you're really still dealing with one person. Having 10 guys with sticks jumping you at one time means your ass is getting kicked no matter what you know. Anyone that doubts that, well, feel free to make yourself an example.


                      therefore i'm really not sure if you're able to act reasonably in a real fight where you're life is threatened ....
                      How do you know when your life is threatened? Every fight can be life threatening. If you lose, if you're on the ground bleeding, crying, unconscious, turtled, whatever... who's to know what your attacker will do next? Maybe he won't stop. You must win or you could die.

                      I've been in enough street fights and trained enough to know what happens and what doesn't.

                      mabuhay!
                      Ha do ken!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If someone attacks you, you hit (etc) and hurt that person if you'r ever caught my the police, be it at the time of the fight or becuase the attcker, friend(s) of that person or member of the public report you, then you get caught you're almost definitely going to be convicted.

                        The attacker is the one who was hurt, who bare sthe spares/broken bones. You'll get in trouble, not that person almost definitely won't.

                        Someone could walk uo to you, hit you and break their hand: - you're getting in trouble unless you have a lot of witnesses to testify for you.

                        Just Run. I can't think of many situations, were if you;re not obviously trying to defend somebody else, were you can't just run. Only if the oerson grabs on to you, then you obviously can't run - getting ambushed? Very unlikely and there will always be an opening.
                        "Training = pain." - I said that.

                        PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          If you lose your technique, training and skill in moments of duress (multiple attacker sparring, which is pretty unrealistic BTW) then you need to train more. In a street fight, unless you're already going to lose, you're really still dealing with one person. Having 10 guys with sticks jumping you at one time means your ass is getting kicked no matter what you know. Anyone that doubts that, well, feel free to make yourself an example.
                          multiple attacker sparring may be unrealistic but it's certainly not useless. it teaches you many things about peripheral vision, awareness, footwork, strategy and unsusual angles of attack. anyway, with animal-like behavior i didn't mean loss of technique or anything like that. in such high stress situations it comes out how good you really are. but thinking in such a situation of continuous attacks is impossible. if you trained lethal moves before you are likely to use them in combat. especially with a knife, lethal strikes with knives are quite basic moves.

                          anyway, it depends on the situation you're in. being surrounded by 5 thugs or being attacked with a weapon surely gives you a greater rush and less time to think than being attacked by a drunk who barely is able to stay on his feet.

                          i don't want to say "it's certainly like this" or "it's like that". it certainly depends on the situation and on the person who's in it. everyone reacts different. i just wanted to tell what i have experienced in training, as it was a weird situation.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Just so you all know... that damn dog came back. He now has a big green paint spot on his side (guess why).

                            I now know how people feel if you go easy on a problem that won't learn its lesson... not that I'm going to shoot him with a REAL gun. I'll just tell animal control to get the dog with a green spot on his side, if they EVER FREAKING COME.

                            <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
                            <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

                            Edited by - Nihilanthic on February 06 2003 15:31:11
                            Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I am not sure exactly what you guys mean by "trained" and "untrained" opponent...

                              Untrained as in, they have never taken a formal class?

                              From my experience, an "untrained" right hook has just about the same knockout power as a "trained" right hook. I'm not saying that streetfighters are almighty or something, but they shouldn't be underestimated with that adrenaline and aggression behind them.

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