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    Non asian martial arts

    I was jsut thinking that we need more info on non-asian martial arts. Things from Europe or Africa. I've heard of a portugeuse stick fighting art, and all kinds of arts in africa. There should be more info on this stuff.

    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
    -Ghandi

    #2
    Most non-asian hand to hand martial arts are "rediscoveries." Meaning they never existed but people wanna pretend that they have this tradition. Of course there are exceptions like Savate, but most cultures never developed ways of fighting without weapons (well they didn't develop them to the point I would call them martial arts.)
    As for weapon arts: Well, the asians were REALLY scarily into tradition so they maintained their fighting ways long after they became obsolete. Other cultures viewed fighting as a means of winning wars, and so they abandoned obsolete arts in favor of cutting edge arts, and then guns trumped ALL the arts. So their original fighthing methods weren't preserved. Of course everyone wants a piece of the pie, so you'll here about "authentic african tribal arts" that no one has actually practiced in 100 years and some dude created to either cash in or make up some new black heritage (kwanza anyone?)

    Now is where everyone flames away and says 'No way dude, I've fucking SEEN african lion fist style. its real!' well whatever, you're all gonna believe whatever you want to anyway.

    Comment


      #3
      The idea that all asians are scarily traditional is kinda silly. When Japan made contact with spain through trade, it didn't take long for Samurai to start using rifles. Strangely enough the samurai still wore their traditional daisho(swords).

      If that's not adapting, I dunno what is.

      Comment


        #4
        Fisting Kittens:

        Before you open up your mouth about European fighting methods, you might consider that that Europeans would have never, as a group, conquered as much of the world as they did if they did not have an equal or greater footing in combat. Technology is always an advantage, but you have to face it that military technology advances the fastest whenever there is war... and Europe has seen more wars than most other regions in the world. At some point in time, they were no more advanced than any other group of people, yet due to the large number of conflicts, as a result of the relatively dense population, they progressed beyond any other group.

        Despite the fact that the printing press came too late for most European fighting methods, we still know about German sword and buckler techniques from the 13th century through a historical manuscript. Fiore Dei Liberi da Premmariacco wrote "Flos Duellatorum in Armis" ("The Flower of Battle") around 1400. It showed just how complete a combat method that Europeans had, covering armed, unarmed, foot, and mounted combat. Striking and grappling. Every single basic weapon from spear to sword. Later, Hans Talhoffer penned a fechtbuch, likewise a treatise on both armed and unarmed combat. The French had both Savate and Chausson. One for the streets and the other for the docks and ships. Lutte was a vicious grappling art (both stand-up and on the ground)... sportified into "Greco-Roman" wrestling and freestyle. Now all three are only found in Danse de Rue Savate which might disappear itself. The Spanish had an even older cousin called Zipota. The Spanish were also the first (and perhaps only) known Europeans to fully apply science to personal combat, which they termed Destreza ("The True Knowledge/Science") which was used for mostly fighting with the sword, but also discussed its use in unarmed combat. Carranza, Del La Vega, Narvaez, Rada, Tamariz, and Thibault all wrote about the Spanish method... which was heavily influenced by the Romans. Rome had its version of Greek Pankration... literally copied and taught by Greeks. As for Pankration itself, we only know it by its Olympic category name. Boxing, Wrestling/Lutte, and, possibly, Zipota/Savate/Chausson owe much to the Romans and Greeks. It's a chain that stretches back to the earliest Fertile Crescent civilizations.

        So, don't write off the European arts. With the exception of Boxing, Savate, and Wrestling, most are merely academic studies... because the firearm is the most effective personal weapon in common use today, followed by the knife.

        Comment


          #5
          Sheol I know you can read so I'm wondering why you didn't read my post. I said that the arts of the asians were preserved because of their freaky worship of tradition. The European arts aren't practiced AT ALL because people moved on to newer and better methods (guns, guns, and more guns).

          I never said they don't have them. Jesus Christ one of my majors is history with a concentration in military history. I spend WAY too much time learning about european fighting methods to pretend they don't have them. My point is you won't find many authentic non-asian martial arts being practiced because the majority of them are extinct or as you said, academic studies.


          Stold: Did I say the asians don't adapt? No, I said they preserved their arts due to reverence for tradition. SO despite the military moving on to firearms and artillery, traditional sword schools and empty hand styles still abounded through out asia. You don't find that in Europe.

          Comment


            #6
            It just seemed like you were saying that they kept their traditional ways and used them mainly in war.

            Comment


              #7
              Fisting Kittens:

              Most non-asian hand to hand martial arts are "rediscoveries." Meaning they never existed but people wanna pretend that they have this tradition. Of course there are exceptions like Savate, but most cultures never developed ways of fighting without weapons (well they didn't develop them to the point I would call them martial arts.)

              It really does sound as if you believe that European cultures, for the most part, simply skipped over unarmed combat. To the contrary, up til the 19th century it was considered to an essential part of being a complete soldier/gentleman. (Note George Silver's famous treatise "Paradoxes of Defense".) Now, if I misread you, it was your own fault. :D Now, I do agree with you that Western pugilism is MOSTLY dead, so what more do you want? :)

              Two to one... you didn't write your points clearly.

              Edited by - Sheol on February 05 2003 02:04:53

              Comment


                #8
                A big problem with Silvers work is that its basicly a propaganda piece against the french spanish and italians. I'm not saying its worthless, but you have to take its bias into account.
                Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989

                Comment


                  #9
                  >The European arts aren't practiced AT ALL because people moved on to newer and better methods (guns, guns, and more guns).

                  Not true. Many Euro arts are still being practiced. The only real 'rediscovery' I can think of is the Pankration thing because pancrase wasn't a style but a event so this seemed very commercial.

                  When I went to India there were pple still practiceing there martial traditions. Many african tribes STILL practice their wrestling and stick fighting traditions as well as hunt with tradtional weapons and use modern firearms as well. By no means do the asians corner the market om being strict on tradition.

                  >Now all three are only found in Danse de Rue Savate which might disappear itself.

                  I don't think it will. I met many who want to perserve the tradtiton.


                  Sheol,

                  When you talk about Zipota, chauson, and etc. How much credit go to the Basque? I'm going back to the reigon to get more info but I get the impression they had a HUGE impact in both countries mainly because they were mean lil bastards getting picked on from both sides.


                  ______
                  Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


                  "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
                  ______
                  Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                  RIP SOLDIER

                  Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                  -Gene, GODHAND

                  You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                  The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                  -Daniel Tosh

                  Comment


                    #10
                    A great source for European fighting arts:
                    http://www.thehaca.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The Asia problem is a thorny one, and one beyond a simple "martial arts" analysis. It became so wrapped around religion, political turmoil, rebellion, Confucianism, cargo-cult kinetics, Daoism, TCM, nascent Chinese nationalism, practice of "magic", anti-Western sentiment, form over function, imitation of elders over innovation etc. Martial Arts in Asia long ceased to be an answer to a problem-namely, how can I defend myself-and became instead a sociological stage. There are only the rare and notable exceptions to escape this. But rather than turning people away from them, the trappings have seduced people to the "cultural" aspect. Though most East Asians I know would be far happier if people learned their basic history.

                      **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                      Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Bleh, what Asia problem, the only problem Asian Martial Arts is it ran into Capitalism, and Communism.

                        Unless modern MAs invented a new way to hit from point A to point B then I don't see why looking back as to how people in the past handled such situations would be a problem.

                        As for Asian Arts too caught up in religion, so were most European Warriors, Filipino superstition easily adapted to Catholic Zealotry brought by Spanish monks who were crusading against the Moros, who in turn were writing Arabic Spells on their armor and gear as they went into battle.

                        So no religion has nothing to do with a Martial Art sucking or not, it probably enhances it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Your reading comprehension skills are very poor. Try again.

                          **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                          Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                          Comment


                            #14
                            SamHarber:

                            Regarding Silver's bias against non-English methods it's only too obvious. Perhaps to him, the French methods were too fanciful, the Italian methods were too reliant on the deep thrust, the Spanish method were simple and effective in practice, but too difficult to learn. (Huh?) Yet, his opinion regarding the practice of a complete range of expertise for the gentleman soldier was the same as other professionals of his era and earlier. Simply put, with the decline of reliance upon a relatively small group of highly trained men in favor of larger professional armies, the importance of the expert soldier became somewhat overlooked by history, especially as the accuracy, reliability, and operational ease of firearms steadily improved.


                            Asia:

                            I heard about Pankration before the commercialism, and it seemed to be very culturally centric and wrapped up in references to Greek families that still practiced it up till the German invasion of Greece. Past that, I have read nothing but anecdotal stories that might be rehashes of earlier tales from before WWII. Someday, I'll go back to Greece to see if those families still exist and whether there are actually any remaining practioners of it.

                            Regarding Danse De Rue Savate, as you probably know, Texas, Oklahoma (once part of Texas), and Louisiana are cultural centers for the Spanish, French, and German communities. That's why Bowie/Navaja methods, savate/zipota, and German medieval methods are still researched/practised. The DDRS groups are very small, but I hope that DDRS does survive. It just seems very unlikely unless it can gain support from the mainstream cultural organizations. Professeur Paturel has been very active in Europe, but I'm not sure who else is there. If you get a chance, shoot off an e-mail to me with European contact information and some links if possible. I'd like to find out more about how the Europeans are doing.

                            The DDRS people acknowledge their significant contributions especially since the Basque practiced those methods before Savate was codified. However, since the Basque people are not generally recognized, most references refer to them as either being Spanish, French, or Italian. Unfortunately for them, they happen to be spread across multiple borders, so most historical references to Savate, Chausson, and Zipota tend to gloss over the connection. They really are a link to the historical Mediterranean cultures.


                            The Wastrel:

                            I agree with you concerning the problems encountered when studying the Asian martial arts, particularly with regards to Chinese systems. The lack of reliable information and texts make it almost impossible to discern what actually constituted their actual fighting methods and what resulted from non-martial influences. The lines are particularly blurred, in the 'newer' systems. Of course, Asia is particularly enamored with Baji, so perhaps he could shed some light on what is/was actually used versus outside influences. :D


                            magikchiongson:

                            There's absolutely nothing wrong with historical research of combative methods. One should simply be carefully of context. Religion and other cultural aspects are a needless distraction when it comes to methodology and adds nothing of substance to the material. There is no enhancement of it at all and strong extraneous influences tend to degrade martial context over time as the methodology ceases to have relevance. It might appeal to someone's aesthetic sense, but there is price to pay from a combative standpoint.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The Wastrel:

                              It's hard to remain civil when it seems like you're speaking another language, doesn't it? :D

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