Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Supposedly lethal techniques

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Supposedly lethal techniques

    Hi everyone, I've been lurking on this site for a while and have now decided to join the discussion with a question that has bothered me a long time. Every now and then, people in my club mention supposedly lethal techniques that seem dubious to me. The three most frequent are:

    1. "If I do the choke like this, it's easy to crush the larynx, and then you die."

    2. "If I hit your solar plexus with my knuckle fist at full power, you die."

    3. "The first strike breaks the nose, and the second shoves the nasal bone into the brain."

    Are there reliable reports about any of this happening anywhere, ever?
    And if not, why are these things perpetuated?
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)

    #2
    1. Possible, but improbable. How many people suffer crushed larynxs in fights, both sanctioned and otherwise? None that I've heard of. Plus when someone tells me how 'easy' it is to kill someone with a move, my bullshit detector goes off.

    2. Even more improbable than Question 1, same reasoning applies.

    3. Total urban myth. Damn near impossible to drive the nasal bone through your forehead. Someone has been watching too many movies.

    My advice: Find a new dojo, one that has a grasp on reality.
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"

    Comment


      #3
      I've never seen (and don't expect to) any documented evidence of things like this happening beyond anecdotes from a karate master fighting 20 bandits in China or the stories some bullshidoka bring back from their dying masters of a lost art.

      Basic observation provides an argument against most of them; on the second one, I've heard of people (i.e. read a story in the newspaper) dying of punches to the solar plexus and abdomen, but only as freak accidents, otherwise, how the hell would boxing be a viable sport? George Foreman would be in jail instead of selling grills for all the men he would have killed with hits to the solar plexus at full power! The reason the rib cage doesn't protect the solar plexus is that there's nothing vital there, no heart, no lungs. Just a bunch of nerves below the diaphragm.

      On the third one, if you took 6th grade biology you would know that's impossible. If you break the nose anywhere but between the eyes, for the most part it will not produce a shard suitable for shoving into the brain. If you break it between the eyes, you still have to consider that the bottom of the nose is attached to the rest of his face! Unless you plan on shoving the rest of his face into his brain, find another way to kill him.

      The first one, I don't know too much about the larynx, but I tend to doubt that it would be too easy to crush the larynx.

      Martial arts instructors and students tend to perpetuate these things so that they can still feel "deadly" even when they don't learn the real combat applications of techniques in their art (i.e. one-knuckle punches to the back of the neck, shuto to the throat and neck, etc).

      A lot of people who take martial arts (and teachers who accomodate them) do it so they can feel tough, and when doing "downblock, punch, downblock, punch" doesn't leave them feeling any tougher, they have to bridge the gap somehow.

      -------------------------
      Clap your hands everybody,
      if you got what it takes
      'Cause I'm Kurtis Blow
      and I want you to know
      that these are the breaks!

      Edited by - Mercurius on January 23 2003 09:43:35
      "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."

      Comment


        #4
        I do believe that throat attacks can be deadly or cause knockout, strikes under the nose can incapacitate, solar plexus and points to left and right on the same level stricking in a 45 degrees can incapacitate. Under the nose is not about bones into the brain. I think it has to do with shock to the system. I have read others who say it is because of a energy point located there. I don't want to have this thread get into the chi flow arguments however. Just suffice it to say it is a sensitive area.

        I know for a fact that the temple area and behind the kneck will cause knockout because I have done them. On Sherdog.com one of you MMA guys talked about his first fight. He was knockout by a blow to the temple area. I believe these points are best struck with things like one knuckle punches, fingers, heel of the palm, and knife hand. It might be because you have great force in a small area. I think we are constructed such that you don't just get bumped or hit in one of these spots and fall over.

        I also still believe these are areas you should be careful with. You don't want to hurt someone badly.



        Edited by - justme on January 23 2003 09:58:41

        Comment


          #5
          HAHAHA!!!!

          KIAIIIII MOTHERFUKKER!! KIAIIII!!!
          "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


          Reverse punch Kiaii!!!

          Comment


            #6
            PeeDee - I am still waiting for your article. ARe you writing? Keep fucking with me, and I will sign up for Nightbreed (or whatever) and hunt you down. You'll be able to throw punches within 1/8 inch of my face with NO AFFECT!

            Comment


              #7
              Ok guys, the consensus seems to be what I had suspected.I suppose many things can happen as freak accidents, but it's not something you should expect. Funny thing is, the people who mentioned this stuff to me don't teach it or put any emphasis on it. Normally, they teach down-to-earth stuff with good technique, so they wouldn't need this for their ego or something. Then again, it comes down to testing the stuff, and if a 200-pound guy with 20 years of MA experience tells you that a knuckle fist would kill you, you probably won't say "Nah. Go ahead, hit me as hard as you can, I'll bet I'll survive." Or would you?
              There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)

              Comment


                #8
                No, what you do is sign him up to fight against other 200 lb guys with 10 years of experience. These other fighters will be more than willing to sign waivers allowing him to use his 'killing' moves. But let me guess, the guy with 20 years of MA experience doesn't fight in pro matches, amatuer matches or challenge matches. If he did, he wouldn't be filling you full of bullshit about killing with a knuckle fist, he would be proving it the hard way (or not proving it, if my suspicions are right).
                "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


                - George Plimpton
                "Shadow Box"

                Comment


                  #9
                  The whole shoving the bone through the brain thing is a silly notion. While if you did manage to shatter the cartilage and/or bone around that area, it is possible that a shard could cut into an artery or vein, causing hemmoraging, which could then deprive the brain of oxygen, causeing brain damage or possibly death. Big news, you could have complications during a fight...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    There are parts of the body more sensitive to strikes than others, temples are one such area. Conditioning by profighters and the improbability of solidly connecting to the small areas make their use impracticle in a lot of ways. The use of gloves may also attenuate some of the effects. Such points are also less effective on some people than on others.




                    **Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You should be concerned about hurting the other guy and then getting to safety. If you're always worrying about what he might do, he is controlling the fight. That's the exact opposite of what you should do.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        "Conditioning by profighters and the improbability of solidly connecting to the small areas make their use impracticle in a lot of ways. "

                        Wastrel has brought up this point also, about the areas being very hard to target especially under stress. It is a valid point. That is one thing that makes Tai Chi so hard IMO. You have to work hard on accuracy. I don't think, however; it is impossible or impractical. It takes more time.

                        I agree with you that grappling is more effective in the short term. I think in the long term with the right training Tai Chi surpasses it.

                        From what I have read, this argument between grappling and striking repeats itself over time. With one catching the other over and over. Kind of like offensive and defensive weapons. Find one. then find the counter and so on. I read something, I think on Sherdog forum, about strikers starting to catch up to the grapplers (i.e Liddell).

                        Plus I agree with Bruce Lee. He talked about being water. I think he meant the ability to adapt. Grapple if you have to, strike if thats better under the circumstances. JKDChick, is that your understanding of this idea. Your take JKD. I just feel from my own experience,I can generate more power with the strike I have learned with Tai Chi then anyother method.




                        Edited by - justme on January 23 2003 15:09:03

                        Edited by - justme on January 23 2003 15:10:25

                        Comment


                          #13
                          "Show and prove"
                          I don't think I can. I think you want evidence in the ring. I cannot give you that, and you know it. I would point to some of the people I have read about like Chen Fake, William CC Chen, or Black Taoist. Also, I can relate to some of my own experiences. But again, I can't give you a film clip or pictures (although the Black Taoist could).

                          I also think what I said about Lee's idea of water is true. Of course, yours might be also. He could have meant many things by it. JKDChick will probably know. It is her style. I don't know is it yours also?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Damn that wastrel! He came on here and made most of the same points I had made (and undoubtably soemone before me). He just made them about 300 times more than me :)

                            I was here first. Bowwho.

                            *stomps off and walks out*






                            **Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Yeah, That Wastrel is always taking over threads. Lets get him!!! I am studying Nightcrawler or whatever that website had. I wait till he shoots in and gets about 1/8 of an inch away, and then.. then... I am not sure what you do next, but I will lock myself away for 8 years to find out.

                              Comment

                              Collapse

                              Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                              Working...
                              X