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    Rolling with the fairer sex...

    Just your thoughts guys (I don't think it's such a big deal for girls. Go figure). A girl just joined our judo club and it's kind of...awkward. I mean, I think that it get's sort of iffy whenever you roll with a girl. I, personally, don't see it as such a big deal, but one of my quasi-instructors (he's a BB, so I guess that kind of makes him an assistant instructor) seems to be giving her preferential treatment. Today for example. The femme in question has been to two sessions so far, so she has at least a rudimentary grasp of ukemi, but he wouldn't let her do throw practice with us (me and another guy), throw practice meaning she gets to throw and also BE thrown. Comparing her experience to mine, I was getting tossed around my first class, =P. There are a lot of issues associated with this that I won't get into, one issue being that she does not have an appreciation for the force of some of the throws, throws that she executes with abandon upon our poor instructor, on the tatami. Also, after the class, the BB was saying how we have to be "careful", because she has a "handicap"(handicap being her gender), and how we should be careful about where we "grab" or "grip", especially in newaza.

    To be clear, this is more of a diatribe concerning reactions to females in the club, as opposed to females as a whole.

    This is more of a personal view, but I feel uncomfortable practicing throws with a female, unless I know for certain that she can control my body (I'm 5'11", 235 lbs...yeah). For example, since I'm only an orange belt, I do light randori with some of the more advanced belts (I'm the only orange at my club, very small ^_^), where we don't actually execute the throw, just set up and maybe load, or do light sweeps and reaps, and the times when we do actually do a full throw, we control the uke throughout the whole throw and let the uke down gently onto the mat (I don't care what you say, tatami hurts man). I'm kind of in the grey area, concerning women, for randori.

    Let's hear your thoughts. Especially the people in grappling arts. (In striking, it doesn't seem to be as big of a problem as opposed to a grappling art. I guess it has to do with the level of contact between the players.

    ~
    delirious

    #2
    "where we don't actually execute the throw, just set up and maybe load, or do light sweeps and reaps, and the times when we do actually do a full throw, we control the uke throughout the whole throw and let the uke down gently onto the mat"

    Damn, we don't even do that when you're learning the throws. Not saying that it's wrong or anything.
    Hmmm...my gut reaction is to say everybody should train the same, but obviously I'm not a teacher. He would want to avoid discouragin her, which is probably much more important for her right now than anything else.
    I would feel uncomfortable with any woman with whom I wasn't well acquainted.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

    Comment


      #3
      Actually, it's actually more of a footwork/set-up exercise. One person, while lifting his hands in the air(no grip scenario), let's the other guy take a grip , and the other guy just tries to do whatever, combo's/uchikomi, whatever =P. It helps develop good footwork and good body movement/posture(using your grip and arms as defensive tools allows you to get away with some improper technique sometimes. IE straight arming (strong arming?)). Of course, that's with a gi, so I don't know if it can be applied to a no-gi situation.

      But yeah, I agree with you Wastrel, any woman I don't know VERY WELL, I would feel VERY uncomfortable rolling with (might be my upbringing..?). Then again, all the women I know that well, aren't of the rolling disposition. =T Go figure.

      Hmmm...my gut reaction is to say everybody should train the same, but obviously I'm not a teacher. He would want to avoid discouragin her, which is probably much more important for her right now than anything else.
      I understand that he might want to avoid discouraging her, but THE EGO AND MIND MUST BE BROKEN IN ORDER TO BE REFORMED, STRONGER AND MORE RESILIENT THAN BEFORE! Haha, that's my masochistic side speaking, but it's not necessarily wrong. If she get's too used to an "easy going" style of training, she's going to be a lot more disappointed later on. It's the same for judoka who get too used to practicing throws on willing participants. When they actually go into randori, it's a totally different ball game. =) That's what I like about full contact practicing MA's. =) The weak are rooted out pretty quickly (there are only weak minded people).

      But yeah, thanks for your take Wastrel, always a pleasure hearing your opinion. =P

      I'm sure the discomfort will go away eventually, as we all get more acquianted, but it's still...there...

      Thought's, anyone else?




      ~
      delirious

      Comment


        #4
        Hmmm...okay I get your description of what you do above. I didn't think that was Randori, but what do I know? What you described makes good sense.

        "THE EGO AND MIND MUST BE BROKEN IN ORDER TO BE REFORMED, STRONGER AND MORE RESILIENT THAN BEFORE![...]If she get's too used to an "easy going" style of training, she's going to be a lot more disappointed later on."

        This works very well on guys, but many women just give up when this happens in an arena where they don't have any traditional role, and therefore feel little drive to prove themselves.

        "That's what I like about full contact practicing MA's. =) The weak are rooted out pretty quickly (there are only weak minded people."

        I've already seen this happen. After one night. On another occasion, a father brought his maybe 13 year old son, and then walked out only a few minutes into our sparring. I think he was looking for "Self-Confidence Karate".



        **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

        Edited by - The Wastrel on January 21 2003 01:14:46
        Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

        Comment


          #5
          I have to say that if training like everyone else is going to discourage her, she shouldn't be there. Also, how preferential is it to treated like you're "handicapped" because you're female?

          That being said, I see the instructor's point. There are are a couple of girls in my BJJ class who're about 120 soaking wet. They roll together or the instructor roles with them because the 200 pound guys would break them. All you need is some macho asshole deciding to "show the little girl what it's REALLY like to wrestle" and breaking her arm. Myself, and one of the other girls, are about 160 or so and we roll with the guys like anyone else.

          Ironic, isn't it, to have a post like this on MLK? Personally, I wait for the day when martial artists are judged not by the color of their skin or their gender, but by the content of their game and whether they can kick ass.

          Oh, and someone should have started a god-damn pool over when I was going to chime in on this thread. Sheesh.

          "I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

          Edited by - jkdchick on January 21 2003 01:39:27
          Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

          Comment


            #6
            "Ironic, isn't it, to have a post like this on MLK? Personally, I wait for the day when martial artists are judged not by the color of their skin or their gender."

            I hope you're kidding. I'm not even sure what it is about Deus' post you disagree with. I mean, you see the instructor's point, right?
            I don't think it's really fair to say that she doesn't belong there if she could still be discouraged from continuing. Some beginners need to be coaxed out of their hesitancy, and men and women alike might need special treatment in the beginning. Otherwise, she might never get a chance to "kick ass".
            Additionally, I don't think it's wrong for us to be uncomfortable grappling with a strange woman. That situation has a host of other dangers associated with it. Perhaps it's hard for you to relate to the possibility of accusations of improper conduct. I won't say it happens often, but I've seen it often enough to know that I need to be very careful around women with whom I am unfamiliar. We're not just being careful of her, but also of ourselves.

            **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
            Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

            Comment


              #7
              JKDChick,

              Personally, I'd like more women like you to be involved in the MA's, unfortunately, I'm guilty of upholding a double standard. Though I wouldn't mind, nay, would encourage more female participation in the arts, it would be an entirely different story for me to actively practice a MA with a women (read: grappling with), especially in something like judo or BJJ.

              This goes deeper than just personal opinion for me, it's ingrained into my culture and background(upbringing) and therefore, my world view. I was raised in a female dominated family, and as such, I've had certain values beaten into me, IE be considerate of the woman, be the protector/nurturer, etc. Don't get me wrong, my sisters are quite independent, and my mom (as usual) is the ruler of the house, but those are the values that they have instilled in me. As such, I find it difficult to practice a martial art (aggression made pretty) with a woman, where to me it seems like I am somehow intruding upon, or dare I say, violating the woman's body or "space", physically. It also seems wrong for me to "submit" a woman (don't laugh =P) especially because of my size and stature (I have never physically seen a woman that could roll with me without me worrying about injuring her), and the very nature of submission wrestling, which is dominating your will over another's through physical combat, does not go over well with my conscience in regards to women.

              In response to your comment on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the vast sexual divide has existed long before any sort of racial conflict. =) It is ingrained into our very genetic makeup to be very very beautifully different, a product of millions of years of evolution, or if you're so inclined, we were created different. ;) Just something to think about though, a trained male (250 lbs) of Asian, African, European, or Latino descent could take on another trained male (250 lbs) of any other race, and they would be equal (let's just assume the same amount of training, intelligence, mindset). However, you would be VERY hardpressed, to find any woman from any race with the same training, etc. that weighs 250 lbs. and is able to fight the man. So, I'm sure you have experienced, there is this line between male and female, that may be crossed and intermingled on a intellectual and emotional level, but on a physical level, the line becomes a wall, that few can jump.

              ~
              delirious

              Comment


                #8
                I've already seen this happen. After one night. On another occasion, a father brought his maybe 13 year old son, and then walked out only a few minutes into our sparring. I think he was looking for "Self-Confidence Karate".
                Or perhaps some "Look at me I'm an acrobat Wushu" or some "I am cultivating my inner rock garden while at the same time defending myself Aikido". =) No flames please, I know people from both arts who can (and do) kick my ass frequently. Thank you.

                ~
                delirious

                Comment


                  #9
                  This goes deeper than just personal opinion for me, it's ingrained into my culture and background(upbringing) and therefore, my world view. I was raised in a female dominated family, and as such, I've had certain values beaten into me, IE be considerate of the woman, be the protector/nurturer, etc. Don't get me wrong, my sisters are quite independent, and my mom (as usual) is the ruler of the house, but those are the values that they have instilled in me. As such, I find it difficult to practice a martial art (aggression made pretty) with a woman, where to me it seems like I am somehow intruding upon, or dare I say, violating the woman's body or "space", physically. It also seems wrong for me to "submit" a woman (don't laugh =P) especially because of my size and stature (I have never physically seen a woman that could roll with me without me worrying about injuring her), and the very nature of submission wrestling, which is dominating your will over another's through physical combat, does not go over well with my conscience in regards to women.
                  I'm glad you recognize your own double standard, even if it makes me grit my teeth and snarl.

                  There isn't much I can really say here -- this topic PISSES ME OFF. A LOT. A HELL OF A LOT. I can't be coherent about it.

                  I admit, I despise the namby-pampy, "see, I'm really open-minded about it, I thnk it's a great idea -- I just don't want to have to deal with it MYSELF" attitude you've expressed here. It's the reason for "women only" gyms and classes. It's the reason women never acheive the technical and physical levels they should. It holds back female MA's a group. And it's the chicks own god-damn faults because nine out of ten of them are pussy whiners who bitch and moan about every bruise. Do you know how hard I have to work to get a decent sparring session in with one of the guys? Either they're trying to prove how tough they are or their afraid of hurting me. YOU CAN'T LEARN THAT WAY.

                  Wastrel, I think everyone should be treated the same at all times. If they need preferential coaxing to get along in class THEY SHOULDN'T BE THERE. MALE OR FEMALE.

                  By the way, we are not prisoners of our up-bringing. Once you become a consenting adult, you choose your own behaviour. It is influenced by many factors, but ultimately WE CHOOSE.

                  "I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."
                  Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Oh, and I will personally, if you wish, come to your school and beat the snot out of any woman who has "personal space" issues with any man during class.

                    They piss me off too. I'm just pissed off this morning.

                    "I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."
                    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm not the same as Deus. There is simply a greater amount of political/social caution that needs to be exercised when engaging in physical contact with women. That's common sense. Do you think a male dentist will allow himself to be alone with you in the treatment room if you're under gas? No. Not if he has any brains. Am I going to roll with a girl I don't know at all, and risk that she's going to decide that I did something inappropriate and deliberate. Maybe, but I will be very careful. That isn't sexism. Maybe you shoudl try being on the other side for once, the side where a career or a reputation can be RUINED by just the shadow of an accusation. A failure to be coherent about it doesn't help. Believe me, I know what the dilemma is. If you want to look at an organization that is confused about the incorporation of women, you could look at the U.S. army, and I'm sure maybe a few others. In the army, I say yes, treat them all the same. Give them the same work, and if they can do it, fine. There are plenty of men who can't. But why am I obligated to put myself in a position of sensitive legal and social vulnerability?

                      "Wastrel, I think everyone should be treated the same at all times."

                      "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..."-Ralph Waldo Emerson

                      **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                      Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You shouldn't have to "put (your)self in a position of sensitive legal and social vulnerability", of course.

                        I blame the women for this. If you want to be treated as an equal, act like one. By that same token, I shouldn't be treated like I'm "handicapped" because I'm a woman. And do you think a woman's life can't be ruined in exactly the same way? In fact, women have spent the last 3000 years being "ruined" by exactly this thing.

                        Oh, I'm not going to get into "double standards". I don't want to pull this thread off topic yet again.

                        I just wish people wouldn'y judge me by my gender, which I can't do anything about.

                        (board breaks with a kick)
                        "Is that it? I feel like I should bow, or have honor or something."

                        -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "Once More, With Feeling"
                        Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I don't judge anyone by their gender. And I agree with you about being treated like equals, but that's the ideal. Meanwhile, I have to get along in the world that I received, and do best to avoid making it any worse. I don't think you're anywhere near off topic, but when it comes right down to it, in my day to day life, I don't care if a woman can have her life ruined in the same way. I have to look out for mine, and anyway, I'm not her teacher. It's his reponsibility to incorporate her. BTW: maybe you're putting too fine a point on "unfamiliar". I'd say that after a month or so I might have a decent idea of the woman's character.

                          **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                          Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                          Comment


                            #14
                            *shrug* I really don't see the issue. You're almost fully protected from a legal standpoint with so many witnesses, etc. Instructors watching, people nearby, and the overall environment of "teaching" in which she willingly subjected herself. If you're really nervous about it, directly ask her before you grapple "Are you ok with this?". Once she's confirmed, use her as you would any other uke.

                            I've always been on that fine line in our dojo...much to the relief of my seniors. (They're always so nervous about touching the girls...probably an age/social issue. They're happy to let me take the "risk".) I've never hesitated to roll with the females in the dojo, especially the ones who INSIST on mixing it up with the guys. (They tend to hurt the other girls...which is a lack of control in my mind, but whatever.) I've been warned on several occasions about "conduct" and "perception"...*shrug* I know for a fact that I now have at least 3 women who will attest to my character in ANY situation because of the trust I've placed in them and because I've FORCED them to up their game to a higher level. (This includes one 100lbs, 5' young single mother who spars "full" contact with me (her "full", my light/med simply so she can survive to support her family ;P...the girl has taken more hits to the chin than I probably have and still keeps coming.)

                            HOWEVER, I disagree with JKDChick. Everyone needs to be brought out a bit in their training. Not everyone is tough as nails right off the bat, and I'm willing to bet you weren't as tough as you think you were when you started either. In fact, if you HAVEN'T mentally toughened over the years, I'd say you've failed a fundamental element of your training. Let her get to Yellow belt or Orange, THEN say to her "Now that you know some of the basics, here's your next challenge." and start throwing harder. Just as you hate being judged based on gender, I hate this cookie-cutter bullshit when training...not everyone is the same, and if you can't put a bit more effort into teaching someone (male or female...there are lots of men who need coaxing too) with a bit of tailoring to their needs, you have no business claiming to be a teacher in the first place.

                            Regards,
                            CrimsonTiger

                            "I would never, in my life, wear black silk underwear" -Classic JCVD

                            Edited by - CrimsonTiger on January 21 2003 12:05:31
                            Regards,
                            CrimsonTiger

                            "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
                            One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
                            Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'm not that sensitive about it, but I can understand why a school owner might be very careful about how that sort of thing proceeds. And remember, even an accusation of this sort of thing can hurt somebody quite a bit. Maybe that's just because I live in California... ;)

                              **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                              Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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