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    "unlearning bad habits"?

    "unlearning bad habits"

    Occasionally ive heard the statement "oh you really should stop learning THAT style, all you will do is pick up bad habits, and then you will have to UNLEARN them, as well as then learn the 'good habits' of a 'good martial art style' of fighting".

    The remedy of course, is to go and learn the style that the person saying this studies. Of course they cant tell you about all the bad habits you'd pick up there either. The Idea was basically that whatever your learning is simply building bad habits in your muscle-memory and body and that not only must you stop learning this, but start learning whatever they suppose, AS WELL AS UNLEARN EVERYTHING ELSE YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN TAUGHT.



    So I have been wondering since then, how can one "unlearn" bad martial art training habits anyway? wouldn't it just be better to build on them and incorporate them into something better?, or simply keep them seperate from different training? Im also curious as to whether such "muscle memory" and motor skill can be "unlearnt" anyway.

    Anyone else been fed this line before? pure bullshido sales pitch if you ask me.
    Last edited by baltasargracian; 11/13/2004 5:08pm, .

    #2
    I don't know if learning bad habits can be picked up from a style, unless you later plan on switching, for then one would have to call the whole style a bad habit, but that would only mean it's a bad compliment to the style to which they are speaking from. Sometimes different styles punch, move, etc. different ways. Like if you were a boxer taking karate, when you spar, your instructor might not want you to hop around and keep your hands in front of your face in the gaurd, but instead use a karate stance, and stand still. I'm just blabbing.

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      #3
      just another excuse for them to mention that they are better than you in every way

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        #4
        You have to drill those bad habits out. Of course, you have to identify what the bad habits are, like trying to fight with your hands in your pockets might be a bad habit.

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          #5
          Originally posted by Thaiboxerken
          ...like trying to fight with your hands in your pockets might be a bad habit.
          So doing TKD would be unwise?
          I'm not drowning my sorrows, I'm preserving them in alcohol.

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            #6
            It really does depend on where you want to go with your stuff.

            From my perspective, lifting up the back heel on straight punches is a bad habit....more specifically, trying to jump up into punches instead of sinking [/i]down[/i]. It's a common "flaw" in many styles and would have to be unlearned to excell at Baji or any of the "internal" styles.

            John Wang, the Shuai Jiao guy, has often remarked that from HIS perspetive bagua circular stepping includes the bad habit of "crossing your feet". He says it makes you easier to throw.

            If you were a boxer planning to go into MT then ducking under punches could be considered a bad habit that needed to be unlearned.

            A BJJ guy trying to wrestler would have to unlearn pulling guard.

            A wreslter moving over to submission grappling will find that "turtleing" is a very bad habit.

            Most "bad habits" that are style specific are also context specific. The rest are either specific just to that school, not the style or to the person himself. Personal bad habits are things like dropping your right when you jab or blinking when you hit or even bouncing too much.
            Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
            http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

            http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

            Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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              #7
              As Omar mentioned, there are some bad habits that are just personal flaws. A guy I know was teaching a MMA group at my school. There was one kid who kept dropping his right hand when he jabbed. So my friend had him hit focus mits with random combos and had someone stand behind this guy. Whenever the guy would drop his right hand, the guy in back of him would hit the kid in the head. He dropped that bad habit pretty fast. I think that lots of things can be "drilled out" like that.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Omar
                From my perspective, lifting up the back heel on straight punches is a bad habit....more specifically, trying to jump up into punches instead of sinking [/i]down[/i]. It's a common "flaw" in many styles and would have to be unlearned to excell at Baji or any of the "internal" styles.
                Why is lifting your heel on straight punches a flaw? I lift my right heel when throwing a right cross. I'm not jumping into the punch though. Tried right now throwing a punch flat footed and it doesn't feel right. Not to derail this thread but just curious.
                .
                :icon_twis
                .

                To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
                Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
                Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Kayne
                  So doing TKD would be unwise?
                  Draw your own conclusions.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by RedElvis
                    Why is lifting your heel on straight punches a flaw? I lift my right heel when throwing a right cross. I'm not jumping into the punch though. Tried right now throwing a punch flat footed and it doesn't feel right. Not to derail this thread but just curious.
                    There was a thread on this a while back and I really want to be carefull not to try and argue this point. I know many boxers, kickboxers, martial artist of all stripes are taught to let the heel come up. I hit hard. I couldn't hit as hard as I do with that habit. This is a throughline of most IMA.

                    There are a couple reasons.

                    We are trying to tranmist power through structure and a good connection to the ground. At the moment of impact, if your heel is off the ground, it means that you have at that moment lost your connection to the earth. You have effectively hurled your body at the bag/your opponent and if you were driving a car on a kamikaze run it would be the equivalent of steping on the clutch right before impact when you really should just keep your foot on the gas all the way to the end.

                    The second reason is that even if you are not obviously jumping into the punch, you are not sinking into it. You are not borrowing from gravity. You are either fighting it or simply ignoring it. You can still get excellent power from the waist and a fair bit at the biggening of the punch from your rear leg (not as much as if you kept the foot planted though) but you miss out on the extra oomph of dropping down into your punches. Just for the record, I hold the same view on round kicks. From what I have seen, one of the main places the Thais get more power out of their rounds compared to the Chiense is that instead of pivoting, they tend to step out and sink into the kicks. When you pivot, you are lifting the weight off the heel and onto the ball of the foot.

                    Lifting the heel gives you a bit more range though and that may be worth it to you.

                    On a side note, Baji is often noted for it's stamping. On reverse punches, we often "stamp" the rear leg. But actually we don't stamp down. We drive the foot backwards into the ground as we punch and that stomp, if timed perfectly with the hit, adds an extra jolt. It's newtons law.
                    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Omar
                      We are trying to tranmist power through structure and a good connection to the ground.
                      Earth power is not the only power available to us. And not the strongest, either.

                      The easier answer to the question was explained in your original post ("from my perspective. . .")
                      Originally posted by Omar
                      (not as much as if you kept the foot planted though) but you miss out on the extra oomph of dropping down into your punches.
                      ah. . .a "draw and transwfer" style. like most of this type, other options are not only misconstrued, but disregarded.
                      Originally posted by Omar
                      Just for the record, I hold the same view on round kicks. From what I have seen, one of the main places the Thais get more power out of their rounds compared to the Chiense is that instead of pivoting, they tend to step out and sink into the kicks. When you pivot, you are lifting the weight off the heel and onto the ball of the foot.
                      Pivot kicks rely on speed, and snap to generate thier power. The thai type kicks not only sink the root leg, but also turn the hip "over" to maximize the force generated, and actually follow through. . .not necessarily an example of earth power, as the thai kick's power generation comes not from "drawing and transferring" the energy, but from an internal aspect. (Yes, I said it. . .muay thai is an internal art - the way y the thai people do it. )
                      Originally posted by Omar
                      We drive the foot backwards into the ground as we punch and that stomp, if timed perfectly with the hit, adds an extra jolt. It's newtons law.
                      Newton? yin/yang, more likely.

                      `~/


                      (edit: Omar - not pickin' on ya, bro. Just saw some stuff I wanted to comment about. Actually, this is how I get introduced to many styles. I ask questions about why, and what, and comment. The why was asked, you provided the what, here are my comments. - I wasn't too familiar with baji, not having any direct contact with any practicioners. . .thanks for the info.)
                      Last edited by Meex; 11/13/2004 10:11pm, .
                      sigpic

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                        #12
                        yeah the thai round kick and TKDs are identicle besides the striking point and i think the power generated from the kick is very noteworthy

                        you need to pivot on your ball of foot because it speeds up the kick (less surface area) and provides a little more reach

                        As for TKD being a bad habit i have noticed one bad habit in my sparring. My foot always ends up hurting things ribs, faces, legs. I dunno maybe it is just the way i practice??

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                          #13
                          TKD's round kick is not like Muay Thai's round kick. Muay Thai does not chamber the kick or snap it.

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                            #14
                            Maybe i went to a mcdojo of a thai gym then

                            i like my chamber though. i think it provides a little more power (more like a cahin with a ball at the end then a bat)

                            what do you mean by snap???? the round house????

                            hojnestly i see a lot of similarities between the two (not being mean or joking) i mean if the TKD is done right

                            the clinch isnt us though but the knees and elbows are similar too

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                              #15
                              My target when I round kick is the front, where all TKD people I've seen try to kick the side of the target. We try to kick all the way through the target. The foot doesn't go from chamber to target to chamber.

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