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    #76
    Originally posted by Thaiboxerken
    Nah nah! I'm not listening! I'm not listening MT is the best 3\/@r. MT pwnz0rs j00
    Unfairly edited to show exessive nutriding.
    Omar is in the PRC you are not. Stop making assumptions about Chinese san da/ san shou.

    And before you start defending MT, yes I know it rocks.
    Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil. - Machiavelli

    Comment


      #77
      He can say whatever he wants about San Da, he could be the chinese emperor, it doesn't matter. I'm happy that the chinese figured out that muay thai techniques work and have developed their own sport based on it. Now, maybe, kung fu will be effective.
      "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

      Comment


        #78
        Djimbe,
        I really don't have a dog in this fight. I thought the clips were impressive. I'm not the least bit threatened by the possibility of Chinese grapplers being superior. Really. I think it's a pretty uncontroversial claim to make that Western Freestyle and Greco-Roman is pretty close to the pinnacle of grappling, sans submissions, but it doesn't really matter to me.

        All I was pointing out is that these guys are clearly using techniques familiar to anyone in the evil world of MMA, and yet talk to any random CMA practitioner and there is a very good chance that they will dismiss Western wrestling as trivial and brutish. To repeat: Why are there such dramatic and startling similarities at the higher levels, but getting the great majority of "Kung Fu" (God I hate that word) people to concede that within their own rubric, people are using the techniques they deride is immensely painful?

        You mention Emptyflower, well Tim Cartmell is a notable exception. I have his book, "Passing the Guard," and find it quite useful.

        As for John Wang, there were two demo clips here, one of some fairly decent Shuai Jiao, which I defended, and one of a simply awful anti-shoot demonstration. It's not much to go on, admittedly, but it was still very stupid. Neither of those clips did anything to support the idea that he is anything like, for example, Pe de Pano. Big deal.

        Before I tore my MCL, I had planned to visit the Eddie Chong school in Sacramento on your recommendation. That was a long time ago; I am only just now able to do anything as strenous as a deep knee-bend, and once I am back up to speed, I will head out there.

        But just to make it clear, YOU'RE the one who thought it credible that with three months of Wing Chun training your wife could beat Brazilian Jiujitsu bluebelts in pure grappling tests. I have a hard time with the idea that you can credibly claim any real grappling knowledge. That's not ad hominem.
        Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

        Comment


          #79
          What's that? . . . Thaiboxeren? I can't hear you clearly.

          Maybe if you took that Thai dick out of your mouth we could all make out what your trying to say.
          Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
          http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

          http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

          Bah!!! Puny Humans.


          Comment


            #80
            I would like to contribute (pontificate, maybe) about the nature of the Omnipresent Kung Fu Theory. While we're all familiar with the fact that the good kung fu is not tethered by the earthly fetters of time/space/reason, there is a great deal more to each art than one or two of its techniques. Furthermore, I think the line of reason that anything with similarities to a Chinese style therefore means that it is a derivative of said style is worth examining.

            Lots of people cite the adage, "There are only so many ways to do X to Y with Z." A person can find armlocks in Western grappling methods, and in Eastern grappling methods. Obviously since the Eastern methods are exotic and therefore cooler than the Western methods, they invented it and this hemisphere is nothing but the pale, hairy shadow of Oriental glory. Joking. Seriously though, let's think about this. Did the pioneers of Greco-Roman say, "Hey, let's think of a really Occidental way to take someone down!"

            This, to me, seems unlikely. More probably, they said, "Hey, let's think of a really efficient way to take someone down!" What do you think their Eastern counterparts said? Of course, having only a cursory knowledge of Eastern sciences and cultures, it's more than possible that they said, "Fuck efficiency, let's do something Oriental." I just don't know.

            Anyways, that there should be some overlap is not only possible, but to be expected. This is the basis upon which we should be coming together, hugging each other, and remarking upon how, while we may be different colors, worship different gods and have ostensibly different vices, we're all the same on the inside, man. Not, "Your technique is just a poor reiteration of mine, swine!" Which, while not often said in letter, is often conveyed (or at least perceived) in spirit.


            But moving along to my original point (down with sequential reasoning!), I think the popular Kung Fu Trap is to think that individual techniques are the be-all, end-all of fighting. Actually, this trap can extend to any complacent practitioner. I'm sure more than one BJJ sophisticate has been bewildered when he pulled guard and someone started, you know, slugging the motherfucker. If I recall (experienced zhoo-zheetsoo players please correct me if I'm wrong) but one of the popular BJJ adages is "position before submission", that one of its greatest advantages is NOT in its warehouse of submission techniques (not discrediting) but the overall strategy of dominance and control on the ground. Similar to how BJJ has a lot of Judo technique but differs vastly from Judo in philosophy and approach. If the only thing to BJJ was tapping a bitch out all willy-nilly, then a smaller man wouldn't be able to near-effortlessly control a much larger man. I believe this situation has numerous precedents that, if required, I will be more than happy to cite and link to.

            Anyway, a person can learn how to jab but that doesn't make them a world-class pugilist. By learning your own style and getting deep into the mechanics and principles behind it, it DOES help you to understand other styles and their tools. And Chinese styles generally tend to be technique-heavy, which leads to the afore-mentioned trap... yadda yadda yadda. I'm going in circles like a cross-eyed retard on a unicycle.

            I know the point was already made by someone else, but I felt it wasn't heeded so I was duty-bound, as a Feudal Warrior-Poet of Bullshido, to repeat it at greater length and detail. Hope it gets through the dome.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by Omar
              What's that? . . . Thaiboxeren? I can't hear you clearly.

              Maybe if you took that Thai dick out of your mouth we could all make out what your trying to say.
              That's ok, you can train Muay Thai all you want and call it whatever you want to call it.
              "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

              Comment


                #82
                dThese are a couple of my favorite techniqes they ripped off of Muay Thai:

                The infamous Muay Thai side kick that Osiris just mentioned:



                And let's not forget the Muay Thai jumping spinning back kick!

                http://www.ws.com.cn/2002/1203/pic/0161d.jpg

                The ever popular Muay Thai single leg:

                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0718/nvzi1.jpg

                The world famous Muay Thai pick up your opponent and throw him out of the ring:

                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0725/xuyanfei2.jpg and http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0725/xuyanfei3.jpg in sequence.

                Here's another couple of those throws Muay Thai is so well known for:

                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0718/xinxiu1.jpg
                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0102/2004010221.jpg
                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0102/2004010222.jpg

                I just wish I had this pic linked with a big Pwn3D!!! on it.

                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0718/wang1.jpg
                Last edited by Omar; 10/23/2004 5:18pm, . Reason: Added one more picture.
                Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                Bah!!! Puny Humans.


                Comment


                  #83
                  Did you know that MT also has ground fighting? And, MT invented the armbar.

                  Nah NM you get the point. which is, you are blinded by nutriding. Stop it.

                  Cool pics Omar. My favourite is the second from the bottom. i'm still impressed that they can do throws/takedowns with boxing gloves on. Very hard to do I would imagine
                  Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil. - Machiavelli

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Throws ARE legal in Thailand.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Gotta love those pics of one dude dumping the other out of the ring.
                      "We spoke to them in the only language they understood: the machine gun"

                      Comment


                        #86
                        For what it's worth....there's boatloads of great Sanda pics at this site:

                        http://www.ws.com.cn/tuku/picture.php?id=52

                        To scroll through them just change the "52" at the end of the address to any number from 1 to 102. Or you can click on the little icons below the pic.

                        上一页 means "previous" and 下一页 means "next."

                        A lot of them are just guys posing pre-fight or holding trophies. Some are ring girls or random people standing in front of the school where they train. I made a point of selecting the NOT Muay Thai techniques pics. There's a lot of fantastics pics of things like roundkicks to the head, shin kicks to the ribs, uppercuts and other punches landing. I just figured they weren't relevent to my point.
                        Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                        http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                        http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                        Bah!!! Puny Humans.


                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by LLL
                          Throws ARE legal in Thailand.
                          if by throws, you mean grabbing someone by the neck and hurling them straight down to the canvas, yes they are legal MT techniques.

                          however if you mean what 99% of the world know as throws (hip throws, suplexes, sweeps, etc.) then those are fouls in MT.
                          "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
                          "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
                          "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
                          "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by Ming Loyalist
                            if by throws, you mean grabbing someone by the neck and hurling them straight down to the canvas, yes they are legal MT techniques.

                            however if you mean what 99% of the world know as throws (hip throws, suplexes, sweeps, etc.) then those are fouls in MT.
                            Yeah... Those aren't seen in western MT matches.

                            & sweeps.... No idea.

                            Suplexes etc. well... probably illegal, but have you ever seen anyone even try one with boxing gloves?


                            & hey, I'm not a MT nuthugger.... more like a lamer who hugs Burmese boxing & Yawyan.

                            (without even seeing either in real life.)




                            [EDIT] Yeah I guess suplexes at least actually WOULD work with gloves...
                            Last edited by LLL; 10/23/2004 7:12pm, .

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Jeez...When are you guys gonna realize that if a technique works in a ring match then it must be MT? I think it's obvious by now.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by LLL
                                Yeah... Those aren't seen in western MT matches.

                                & sweeps.... No idea.

                                Suplexes etc. well... probably illegal, but have you ever seen anyone even try one with boxing gloves?


                                & hey, I'm not a MT nuthugger.... more like a lamer who hugs Burmese boxing & Yawyan.

                                (without even seeing either in real life.)




                                [EDIT] Yeah I guess suplexes at least actually WOULD work with gloves...
                                You haven't been paying attention:


                                http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0725/xuyanfei2.jpg and http://www.ws.com.cn/2003/0725/xuyanfei3.jpg in sequence.

                                Technically not a suplex but it makes it pretty clear how a suplex would work. I'm scanning my "Sanshou vs. Karate" exhibition match VCD at the moment to try and find the Suplex I remember in there....
                                Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                                http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                                http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                                Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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