Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

San Da , anyone ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #31
    Originally posted by JKDChick
    Calling BJJ a modified version of JJJ or Judo would be slightly less insane.

    No , it would just make certaim people with Issues of Race or Nationalism feel more comfortable .

    I would make the Equal statement ABOUT JJJ , Sambo , or Judo , and if you had just 5 books off of my Bookshelf you would leaf through them and start shouting out all the Japanese names to the same old crap that you do in your BJJ classes every day , except most of the Apps would be standing versions . Qinna simply means "Joint Manipulations" . And the Growndwork in the aforementioned systems are simple Adjustments of these things .

    Just the same way I watch a BJJ Training Video by Jacare or someone , and go "Oh ! Thats just "Woodcutter Binds The Wood" while laying down ! So THATS how you would pull that off !"

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Omar

      In 1909 Huo Yuan Jia established the Jing Wu school that was featured in "Return of The Dragon" where Bruce Lee plays his most famous student, Chen Zhen. The school went through some structural changes and in 1916 became the model for the government supported martial arts training in China that happened later in 1928.

      The styles at Jing Wu included Gong Li Quan (aka Gung Lek Kuen), Tan Tui (a northern style with lots of kicking.) and included over 20 different styles in all. The kicks you see in modern wushu can be traced back to Tan Tui and Northern Shaolin NOT TKD.
      IMO their curriculum(Jingwu) is a bit overflooded~~~

      The next big step in the evolution of modern day Sanda was the establishment of the Nanjing Martial Arts acadamy in 1928.
      While true, but they used it in trad. CMA style,not the unified sanda style we see today~~~
      The exams included full contact fights. The Nanjing acadamy tried to bring Shaolin and Wudang styles together under the same roof. They taught Taijiquan, Baguazhan, Xing Yi and also various Shaolin styles. Unfortunately the alliance was not smooth and the school became pretty factionalized.
      I think dividing CMA into Shaolin and Wudang styles is plainly idiotic~~~

      So Sanda, the sport fighting, has been an official staple of the Chinese government supported martial arts since at least 1928. TKD wasn't even created untill several decades later and even then was never much of an influence. Pigua Quan, Cha Quan and Norrthern Shaolin are heavy kicking arts.
      You forgot the cool Chuo jiao~~~
      Boxing has been part of the Chinese curriculum since the beggining but never caught on big probably because no boxer ever won a Sanda tournament.
      Duh...........The 3 Zhu brothers are reowned for training both W. boxing and xingyi. One of them was No.1 and no.2 in 2 full-contact tournament~~~

      The biggest setback was the Japanese invasion in the 30's. When that happened the government stopped all funding for these schools and the inter-provincial championship tournaments and Chinese wushu took a giant step backwards. The Nanjing Acadamy and it's affilited schools were founded by the KMT. Chang Kai Shek put his man Zhang Zhi Jiang in charge
      Sad.......

      I'll say straight up that I am not to clear on what happened from the 50's to the 70's but the main thing that has changed recently is that, especially in the early 80's, the training became more specialized. The same athelete will train both performance Wushu and Sanda but there is no longer any real link between the 2 courses. The sanda fighters still use a lot of traditional conditioning methods from northern Shaolin and from Tan Tui but the forms have evolved so much in the past 20 years that they no longer have any real bearing on the fighting.
      Thanks Cai Long Yun~~~
      "People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
      - Uncyclopedia entry on Judo

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by The Wastrel
        This calls for more discussion. Where, really, do you get off making this statement? I mean, you yourself admit you have no ground skills.
        I "Get Off" calling the Sky Blue , as well . When did it start to take some kind of "Gall" to connect things so very Obviously connected . The Japanese got MA from the Chinese just as the Brazilians got it from the Japanese . So what ? The Grappling moves are in some cases Identicl , just one for Standup in my Chinese Manual , and one for Ground in my BJJ book . Seriously , sometimes the only thing that changes is the Setup , sometimes NOTHIGN changes . Its the Origins of what we do , nothing more .

        & Actually , Ive never said that about my Ground game . Ive said that Im no ground Specialist , and that Im not one much for Subs , but I use Joint Manipulation as much as anyone , I simply use them to make openings for Strikes to Finish . Well , and to look for shit to break , or to Force Reactions . Im also GREAT at escapes , like a greased eel , despite my size .

        Stop modifying what I say .

        It betrays a basic misunderstanding of what the "game" is. It's not about certain chokes or locks, it's about sensitivity, position, and guile. I was injured quite seriously, and sidelined for about seven months. Upon my recent return to training, I suck momentously. Almost worst than when I first started. Admittedly that is partially due to a certain structural weakness in my knee I still suffer, but the fact is all that strategy and sensitivity is what makes a game. Not knowing a "kimura".
        Are you arguing my side of the debate for me ? This is MY point ! I sat there and said that the moves themselves have different names that are all Irrelevant , what matters is the understanding of the mechanical principles that underly them , not what "Style" you may claim to be studying under , its All Qinna (Joint Manipulation) in the end . If you were previously one to Excell at it standing , you will take just as well to it on the ground . I dont see whats so Difficult to Understand . Ive handed a Qinna book to the BJJ guy that I respect most , he said "Wish I would have had this before !" Then went out and bought it . Not because he NEEDED it , but because it was another way of looking at the same problems , through a slightly different lense , but still one pretty much the same , where Results matter .

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Djimbe
          I "Get Off" calling the Sky Blue , as well . When did it start to take some kind of "Gall" to connect things so very Obviously connected . The Japanese got MA from the Chinese just as the Brazilians got it from the Japanese .
          .......and Japanese karatekas said Chinese got it from Indians and Indians got it from Greeks~~~ :icon_scra
          & Actually , Ive never said that about my Ground game . Ive said that Im no ground Specialist , and that Im not one much for Subs , but I use Joint Manipulation as much as anyone , I simply use them to make openings for Strikes to Finish . Well , and to look for shit to break , or to Force Reactions . Im also GREAT at escapes , like a greased eel , despite my size .
          like a greased eel? Your body lard? :wrestlerb
          Just kidding~~~
          Last edited by liuzg150181; 10/23/2004 1:00am, .
          "People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
          - Uncyclopedia entry on Judo

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Djimbe
            Even with that being said , the Ground Games of even the best BJJ players are just modified Qinna . This means that its really not all that hard to pick it up if your Chinese Standing Grappling game was tight in the first place
            I don't know what kind of response you expect to this except "lol what".
            Originally posted by The Wastrel
            I think the forum's traditionally light-handed approach to moderation has become untenable.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by liuzg150181
              1. IMO their curriculum(Jingwu) is a bit overflooded~~~


              2.While true, but they used it in trad. CMA style,not the unified sanda style we see today~~~

              3. I think dividing CMA into Shaolin and Wudang styles is plainly idiotic~~~


              4. You forgot the cool Chuo jiao~~~

              5. Duh...........The 3 Zhu brothers are reowned for training both W. boxing and xingyi. One of them was No.1 and no.2 in 2 full-contact tournament~~~


              Sad.......



              Thanks Cai Long Yun~~~
              1. I suppose it might seem that way today but there are 2 aspects to this. First, it was not a "gong fu" school like we think of today. It did offer classes to the outside like that but more than that it offered a complete university curriculum. What I didn't include in my list of classes were the history, language, mathematics and other course expected at a colelge or University. It was a full time curriculum.

              The other and more signifigant point is that, at least according to the apochryphal history, Huo Yuan Jia was trying to unify the martial arts world of China. He claimed that it was a mistake to get hung up on particular styles and that you should just train everything. In the end it is just kicking, punching, grabbing and throwing. He supposedly saw stylistic allegience as a weakness. He did create his own style, Mizongquan but was rememebered for his efforts to unify and therefore strengthen China.

              2. My point is that Sanda is not some sort of half-assed "answer" to to Muay Thai. (what was the question? ) It evolved out of its roots back in the 20's. Sanda may be trained as it's own style these days but the techniques it was created from are mostly there in the old curriculum. The throws, the kicks, the training methodology and more all can be traced back.

              3. Apparently so did they. That's why they tried to establish a school where BOTH Shaoling AND Wudang would be trained together but in the end, the "internal" guys still tried to be "higher level" and the external guys continued to try and prove that internal arts was for pussies.

              4. I didn't forget Shuai Jiao. I was responding specifically to the claims that Sanda kicks were based on either TKD or Muay Thai. No one seems to be claiming that their throws are anything but Shai Jiao... oops. I just noticed...some people ARE claiming that they are just "wrestling" throws, whatever that means.

              5. Cool. I never heard that. But unlike American where if you throw a shin kick you are no longer doing gong fu but suddenly have become a MT fighter and a win by RNC invalidates all your other training...in China I suspect the reverse is true. It doesn't matter how much boxing they did. They trained Xing Yi and that's why they won....:confused4

              btw,

              Who is Cai Long Yun? I didn't get the reference.
              Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
              http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

              http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

              Bah!!! Puny Humans.


              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Omar
                Don't MAKE be post the history of Sanda on your ignorant ass!!!
                You don't have to, I've heard the Chinese version.. it just doesn't have evidence associated with it.

                San Da, San Shou..... these are simply modern competitions developed in china because of their envy of Muay Thai's success.
                "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Apostol
                  Black Taoist competes in San Shou mainly. I guess he fights like a thai boxer? Wrong.
                  Who the fuck is that?
                  "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Tell me counts as evidence?

                    I have photos of the school.
                    There are newspaper clippings showing the results of the tournaments.
                    I have trained at a wushu university and done the northern shaolin warm ups.
                    I have a photo of Zhang Zhi Jiang the appointed president of the Nanjing University.

                    It's all heavily documented.

                    I have a photo from one of the tournaments in the late 80's when they were still wearing extensive protecive gear.
                    My teacher's teacher was one of the head instructors in the Nanjing acadamy. He was also an army general so it's easily confirmable if you can read Chinese. I have found his name on .gov websites.

                    You name it. Newspapers reports, goverrnment records, personal accounts, the buildings where they trained...it's all there if you know where to look.

                    The only thing that's NOT there is any evidence that Sanda was created in response to MT.
                    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Djimbe
                      Get over yourself , or stop posting on the internet . No one is going to shut up because you tell them to .
                      No, but they should. Then again, everyone on the internet is a tuff guy.

                      Supexes get scores as long as the Opponent touches Cleanly and first .
                      Which doesn't matter to a wrestler, as long as they have control of the opponent and take them down.

                      Firemans get Scores .
                      The san shou rules don't allow a wrestler's style fireman's where one knee of the shooter is on the ground.

                      Ankle Picks get scores .
                      As long as the opponent falls first.

                      Single Legs get scores .
                      As long as the opponent falls first.

                      Double Legs get scores .
                      As long as the shooters knees don't touch the ground and the opponent falls first.

                      Ive scored with each of these moves , and they are both in Taijiquan and Wrestling .
                      You can only score with a small percentage of wrestling takedowns and only if the opponen lands first or your knees don't touch ground.


                      You can score with a "Whizzer"/Armdrag combo if you land on top of the other guy , as well .
                      Yep, as long as you land on top of the other guy..........

                      Hell , you can WIN by Submission if youre Fast enough . You DO get 5 seconds on the Ground . But this means that you have to pretty much go to the ground with the hold on , or at the least going into it . NTM that its pretty hard with Boxing gloves on .
                      I doubt it. Heck, I've never seen an attempt at submission in San Da or San Shou. Would a standing "guillotine" be legal?
                      "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Xango
                        Also, Thaiboxerken is a wanker. I'll prove it: what martial art does that takedown where he grabs the leg and kicks out the other leg to put the guy on his face come from?
                        Grabbing the legs is legal in Muay Thai, and kicking the other leg out is also taught in Muay Thai as well, it's just not legal for the ring. However, I never claimed that the throws in San Da were Muay Thai, I am just stating that San Da is Muay Thai with throws added.
                        "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          So Sanda, the sport fighting, has been an official staple of the Chinese government supported martial arts since at least 1928.
                          Yep, I don't think San Da was China's answer to TKD, it was their answer to Muay Thai.
                          "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            The only thing that's NOT there is any evidence that Sanda was created in response to MT.
                            Except the boxing gloves, muay thai shorts, the thai style kicks, the use of thai-pads during training and the fact that the sport was developed in relatively modern times.
                            "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Omar
                              1. I suppose it might seem that way today but there are 2 aspects to this. First, it was not a "gong fu" school like we think of today. It did offer classes to the outside like that but more than that it offered a complete university curriculum. What I didn't include in my list of classes were the history, language, mathematics and other course expected at a colelge or University. It was a full time curriculum.
                              A CMA university?
                              The other and more signifigant point is that, at least according to the apochryphal history, Huo Yuan Jia was trying to unify the martial arts world of China. He claimed that it was a mistake to get hung up on particular styles and that you should just train everything. In the end it is just kicking, punching, grabbing and throwing. He supposedly saw stylistic allegience as a weakness. He did create his own style, Mizongquan but was rememebered for his efforts to unify and therefore strengthen China.
                              He had insight on MA,or the CMMA~~~
                              However if I am not wrong he DID NOT invent Mizongquan,it is his family art passed down~~~
                              2. My point is that Sanda is not some sort of half-assed "answer" to to Muay Thai. (what was the question? ) It evolved out of its roots back in the 20's. Sanda may be trained as it's own style these days but the techniques it was created from are mostly there in the old curriculum. The throws, the kicks, the training methodology and more all can be traced back.
                              Oic,sorry to misunderstand your point~~~
                              Anyway i met a Sanda instructor(he had background in Trad. CMA) and sanda,despite some similarities with MT,is different from MT in many ways~~~
                              3. Apparently so did they. That's why they tried to establish a school where BOTH Shaoling AND Wudang would be trained together but in the end, the "internal" guys still tried to be "higher level" and the external guys continued to try and prove that internal arts was for pussies.
                              LoL~~~
                              I am siding EMA right now~~~ :new_borgs
                              But there is a witty and sarcastic comment from a general regarding this issue:"So Wang Zi Ping(head of Shaolin branch) is a Hui Muslim.......Is it the case that he had converted to Buddhism or that shaolin temple had been converted to Islam?"

                              4. I didn't forget Shuai Jiao. I was responding specifically to the claims that Sanda kicks were based on either TKD or Muay Thai. No one seems to be claiming that their throws are anything but Shai Jiao... oops. I just noticed...some people ARE claiming that they are just "wrestling" throws, whatever that means.
                              Chuo jiao,not shuai jiao~~~ :evil5:
                              It is a predominantly kicking MA utilizing the sole,tip and instep of the foot~~
                              5. Cool. I never heard that. But unlike American where if you throw a shin kick you are no longer doing gong fu but suddenly have become a MT fighter and a win by RNC invalidates all your other training...in China I suspect the reverse is true. It doesn't matter how much boxing they did. They trained Xing Yi and that's why they won....:confused4
                              LoL~~~
                              I went to check in the Chinese website and actually it should be 4 Zhu brothers,not 3,and the one that kicks ass during the tournament is Zhu Guo Fu,who also taught Western boxing in the institution~~~
                              Anyway that is not totally the case.When he won the taiji master Wu Jian Quan accused him of using western boxing. Zhu issued a challenge to him but Wu backed down~~~

                              Who is Cai Long Yun? I didn't get the reference.
                              He is the deputy dean of the CMA institution in China during Mao's time,and he formulated the modern wushu changquan that we saw today~~~
                              Despite that he and his father were badasses,their family MA is Hua quan(a style of long boxing);his father was the bodyguard and MA instructor of Sun Yat Sen while he himself supposedly kicked the ass of two Western boxers from US and Russia~~~
                              "People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
                              - Uncyclopedia entry on Judo

                              Comment


                                #45
                                I really can't believe that my defense of the clip is resulting in yet another Djimbe flame tirade. Further devolving, I might add, into yet another accusation of anti-Chinese bias. Way to go.
                                Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X