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    #16
    Originally posted by Thaiboxerken
    Bullshit, San Da is simply Muay Thai + throws. Wrestling takedowns dont' score points either, so shut the fuck up.
    Don't MAKE be post the history of Sanda on your ignorant ass!!!


    I haven't watched the clip yet so I have no idea what they were doing on that one but I CAN tell you that Sanda, the professional sport of the PRC has a clear continuous history and development going all the way back at least to the turn of the century give or take a decade. And it has had almost no influence from the Thai's untill very very recently. And EVENTHEN just in the form of friendly rivalry.

    The techniques are MOSTLY taken from northern Shaolin and traditional Chinese Shuai jiao.

    SanSHOU is a more common term in the west for out own version of the sport. IMHO the western version is pretty fucking amateur compared to what they do in China. This is NOT PRC nutruding either. I'll post the pics if you want.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


    Comment


      #17
      actually I heard the government ised western boxing and other foreign styles as part of the curriculum. They looked at all the national styles plus foreign styles to include in the curriculum and they mostly used boxing mix with tae kwon do. But coaches come up with the most effective curriculums. And yes I'd like for you to ost the history of san shou for us.

      Comment


        #18
        Thaiboxer, San Shou translated into English is "Free Sparring", and nothing else.

        Black Taoist competes in San Shou mainly. I guess he fights like a thai boxer? Wrong.

        Comment


          #19
          Shut the fuck up.
          Im still talking , slappy ! See how well that works ?

          I live in Allentown , PA . Any time you wish to try and STOP me , Youre more than welcome to swing by ! Ill provide you with the rest of the Info that you need to meet up .

          Get over yourself , or stop posting on the internet . No one is going to shut up because you tell them to .

          As to the ACTUAL DISCOURSE ...

          Supexes get scores as long as the Opponent touches Cleanly and first .

          Firemans get Scores .

          Ankle Picks get scores .

          Single Legs get scores .

          Double Legs get scores .

          Ive scored with each of these moves , and they are both in Taijiquan and Wrestling .

          You can score with a "Whizzer"/Armdrag combo if you land on top of the other guy , as well .

          Hell , you can WIN by Submission if youre Fast enough . You DO get 5 seconds on the Ground . But this means that you have to pretty much go to the ground with the hold on , or at the least going into it . NTM that its pretty hard with Boxing gloves on .

          Comment


            #20
            This clip is ANCIENT! Hell, I got flamed for posting it when I first joined the board, because it had been posted before.

            Also, Thaiboxerken is a wanker. I'll prove it: what martial art does that takedown where he grabs the leg and kicks out the other leg to put the guy on his face come from? Cause it sure as fuck ain't muay thai, or wrestling. What, you have a fucking patent on fighting now?
            I would liken it to the boxing or the muay thai of internal kung fu, even though that's like calling apples the oranges of the apple world. --WalkOn

            Comment


              #21
              Oh , and Ken , can you PLEASE explain what the FUCK you mean by THIS :

              a wrestling style takedown.
              Because an armdrag is so much more like "Lion Shakes Its Head" than it is like an Ankle Pick , and "Pick Up Needle" is practically a map to an Ankle Pick , wich is utterly different than a Suplex .

              A Suplex , an Ankle Pick , and an Arm Drag are three legit ways to take ppl down , and yet they are far closer to something Chinese that works through similar mechanics than they are to each other ! They cant be delineated by contry of origin like that .

              Comment


                #22
                Well, no. And yet somehow Chinese grappling is extremely weak, and they eschew groundfighting. And we are still hammering away daily at the notion that Chinese arts are more sophisticated than their barbarous Western opposites.
                Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by The Wastrel
                  Well, no. And yet somehow Chinese grappling is extremely weak,

                  I would have to Disagree here . Firstly , any kind of Blanket statement that broad is bound to need a Caveat or twenty , but even beyond that , Chinese Grappling is strong as anywhere else in the world . Its the Ground Game that needs work . In fact one of the posters from one of the better MMA schools on this board was telling us a week ago or two how his instructor loved the Kuaijiao and taught it as part of the MMA Curriculum at his school .

                  I think that the only reason that you may PERCIEVE Chinese Grappling as "Weak" is beecause when you compare the avg ameri9can CMAist to the avgt american Competitive Wrestler , youre comparing 6-8hours a week with 20-40 hours/week training schedules , and thats not a systemic comparison , its an athletic/experiential one .

                  Chinese systems are often at least half Grappling ... *Omar , I realise Im stealing your lines here , so Ill let you finish this section , you do it so eloquently .*

                  <Sue me , you can have this Sammich . Or my Crappy outmoded comp , but the Pr0n would make it worth it - maybey ...>

                  Even with that being said , the Ground Games of even the best BJJ players are just modified Qinna . This means that its really not all that hard to pick it up if your Chinese Standing Grappling game was tight in the first place .


                  and they eschew groundfighting.
                  Some ppl do , some dont ... but even then , Ive seen some pretty fucking rediculous Chinese Groundfighting . That didnt mean that they eschewed DOING that goofy shit , but hey ...

                  Its correct that many schools do , however . But making a Blanket Statement like that is just no good .

                  And we are still hammering away daily at the notion that Chinese arts are more sophisticated than their barbarous Western opposites.
                  Not more sophisticated , just better suited to the probablilities of the situations that most ppl would get themselves into in a real encounter . If someone said that I could ONLY train in Stqnding or Gopund Grappling , Id pick standing , its better for Self Defense .

                  Fortunately we can Cross Train , and do whatever the hell we want , however . But the fact is that most people will never need to be better than a BJJ blue in their entire lives , and that can be Achieved in les than 2 years . They would then be fully capable of doing all the things needed to support a competent Standup Curriculae (so long as it included Standing Grappling) .
                  Last edited by Djimbe; 10/22/2004 10:46pm, .

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Djimbe
                    I would have to Disagree here . Firstly , any kind of Blanket statement that broad is bound to need a Caveat or twenty , but even beyond that , Chinese Grappling is strong as anywhere else in the world .
                    Let's make it one caveat. And as far as good as anywhere else in the world, come on, that's just a relativistic assertion.


                    I think that the only reason that you may PERCIEVE Chinese Grappling as "Weak" is beecause when you compare the avg ameri9can CMAist to the avgt american Competitive Wrestler , youre comparing 6-8hours a week with 20-40 hours/week training schedules , and thats not a systemic comparison , its an athletic/experiential one .
                    And not one I am making. Those who are frequently presented as top-level CMA practitioners demonstrate sub-standard grappling skills.


                    Even with that being said , the Ground Games of even the best BJJ players are just modified Qinna . This means that its really not all that hard to pick it up if your Chinese Standing Grappling game was tight in the first place .
                    Look, I'm trying to be productive here, but that's just crazy.




                    Some ppl do , some dont ... but even then , Ive seen some pretty fucking rediculous Chinese Groundfighting . That didnt mean that they eschewed DOING that goofy shit , but hey ...

                    Its correct that many schools do , however . But making a Blanket Statement like that is just no good .
                    It's good enough. Fukienese Dog Fighting or whatever is not "groundfighting", and I choose not to interpret similar monstrosities as serious attempts.



                    Not more sophisticated , just better suited to the probablilities of the situations that most ppl would get themselves into in a real encounter . If someone said that I could ONLY train in Stqnding or Gopund Grappling , Id pick standing , its better for Self Defense .
                    But I didn't say anything about standing or ground-grappling. And I don't think Eagle Claw passes this test.

                    And hell, if you want to add caveats, you said these guys weren't good because they WERE American, but maybe their takedowns were good for precisely that reason. This being the cradle of stand-up grappling...
                    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                    Comment


                      #25
                      SanSHOU is a more common term in the west for out own version of the sport. IMHO the western version is pretty fucking amateur compared to what they do in China. This is NOT PRC nutruding either. I'll post the pics if you want.
                      Can you post pics? San Shou media is difficult to find.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Djimbe
                        Even with that being said , the Ground Games of even the best BJJ players are just modified Qinna . This means that its really not all that hard to pick it up if your Chinese Standing Grappling game was tight in the first place .
                        This calls for more discussion. Where, really, do you get off making this statement? I mean, you yourself admit you have no ground skills.

                        It betrays a basic misunderstanding of what the "game" is. It's not about certain chokes or locks, it's about sensitivity, position, and guile. I was injured quite seriously, and sidelined for about seven months. Upon my recent return to training, I suck momentously. Almost worst than when I first started. Admittedly that is partially due to a certain structural weakness in my knee I still suffer, but the fact is all that strategy and sensitivity is what makes a game. Not knowing a "kimura".
                        Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Djimbe
                          Even with that being said , the Ground Games of even the best BJJ players are just modified Qinna . This means that its really not all that hard to pick it up if your Chinese Standing Grappling game was tight in the first place .
                          Calling BJJ a modified version of JJJ or Judo would be slightly less insane.
                          Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by The Wastrel
                            Let's make it one caveat. And as far as good as anywhere else in the world, come on, that's just a relativistic assertion.
                            No , not at all .


                            But what would be wrong with a little Relativism ? (Im serious , I truly dont understand your Issue with it)

                            And not one I am making. Those who are frequently presented as top-level CMA practitioners demonstrate sub-standard grappling skills.
                            I never said that you were making it , thats why I used words like "Think" , and "May" , and "Perceive" .


                            Oh , and who is this , these Top-Level people ? I didnt know that anyone that I wold see as "Top Level" was even on Western Radar !


                            Look, I'm trying to be productive here, but that's just crazy.

                            The underlying premise of my statement was "People Already Good At Joint Manipulation Pick Up New Joint Manipulation Material Quickly"


                            What the hell is so crazy ?

                            It's good enough. Fukienese Dog Fighting or whatever is not "groundfighting", and I choose not to interpret similar monstrosities as serious attempts.

                            firstly , I think that any legit challenge to your depth of knowledge on FDB would carry the day .

                            That aside simply claiming that somethign is inferior based on Locale and not having ANY reasning whatsoever is rediculous . Even though its a Throw , heres an Example :

                            The last Taiji class that I went to at my school was 3 hours on the Firemans Carry . He has 4 ex-Wrestlers in that class , not all of them from the US . NO ONE left that class without learning a Variation that they claimed wasnt superior to something that they had learned before . In fact , the fact that we were Drilling it legitimately with Boxing Gloves on without any Penalty was astounding to all of them . Well , you know , that and the fact that Taiji even HAD the move :wrestlera .




                            But I didn't say anything about standing or ground-grappling. And I don't think Eagle Claw passes this test.
                            I know , thats one of the problems , you make no Distinction , and you throw out that a couple of thousands of systems of MA are all "Equally Poor" , basically . its hard to even take that kind of "Argument" seriously . I mean , aside from the most direct "How Would You Even Know ?" sort of thing Youve shown nothing that would make anyone believe that you have anywhere NEAR the depth of experience with Chinese Martial Arts to make that kind of Blanket Statement ! Youre not dileniating ANYTHING , no schools , systems , techniques , NOTHING ! Its hard to believe that you have the wealth of information required to give a fair assesment when all you know about CMA is the names of a couple pof syustems ... to that end ...

                            Would you like to tell me WICH "Eagle Claw" system (yes , there is more than 1 style of Eagle Claw) it is that you have issue with the Grappling game of and why ? What part of their Structure or Training needs Improvement and why ?

                            And hell, if you want to add caveats, you said these guys weren't good because they WERE American, but maybe their takedowns were good for precisely that reason. This being the cradle of stand-up grappling...
                            Actually I said no such thing . Firstly , I didnt ay that they werent good . You really need to stop putting things that I didnt say in my mouth .

                            I ALLUDED to the fact that they have a tendency to revert to a more Western Movement Style when they put on Boxing gloves . That dosent automatically make them shitty fighters . That just means that American CMA students tend to do that . And I VERY SPECIFICALLY mean AMERICANS , not just westerners or "Non-Chinese" . The last Lei Tai torney I went to the Brazillians and the Puerto Ricans (arent they technically America , sort of ?) DOMINATED the Americans because they DIDNT have such habits .

                            Oh , and America is HARDLY the "Cradle" of standup Grappling .

                            You MIGHT have made an argument for Greece ...

                            But Like I said , Omar will eventually come along and say what I already woulfd have said so much more Eloquently , so Ill just wait for that .

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by UnarmedBoxer
                              actually I heard the government ised western boxing and other foreign styles as part of the curriculum. They looked at all the national styles plus foreign styles to include in the curriculum and they mostly used boxing mix with tae kwon do. But coaches come up with the most effective curriculums. And yes I'd like for you to ost the history of san shou for us.
                              Modern Wushu was more or less founded right at the end of the Qing dynatsty. The official curriculum in 1918 was divided into the following sections:

                              Shuai Jiao
                              "boxing" (Chinese style. ie. stand up striking)
                              Staff
                              Sword

                              There were a total of 24 indiviidual courses at the time.

                              In 1909 Huo Yuan Jia established the Jing Wu school that was featured in "Return of The Dragon" where Bruce Lee plays his most famous student, Chen Zhen. The school went through some structural changes and in 1916 became the model for the government supported martial arts training in China that happened later in 1928.

                              The styles at Jing Wu included Gong Li Quan (aka Gung Lek Kuen), Tan Tui (a northern style with lots of kicking.) and included over 20 different styles in all. The kicks you see in modern wushu can be traced back to Tan Tui and Northern Shaolin NOT TKD.

                              There were also weapons taught at the time, a half dozen or so single weapons and then over 15 different "vs." types of training.

                              The next big step in the evolution of modern day Sanda was the establishment of the Nanjing Martial Arts acadamy in 1928. The exams included full contact fights. The Nanjing acadamy tried to bring Shaolin and Wudang styles together under the same roof. They taught Taijiquan, Baguazhan, Xing Yi and also various Shaolin styles. Unfortunately the alliance was not smooth and the school became pretty factionalized.

                              The style that were taught and which subsequently became the base for the Sanda we see today were as follows:

                              Xing Yi
                              Taiji
                              Baji
                              Cha Quan
                              The "new" Wushu that had been created for the earlier schools back in 1909.
                              Lian Bu Quan
                              Za Quan
                              Pigua
                              Xing Quan

                              And a few others of lesser note.

                              Other courses included:

                              sword
                              sabre
                              staff
                              spear
                              whip and other weapons.
                              qi gong
                              BOXING (western style)
                              Japanese style sword fighting
                              SANDA

                              So Sanda, the sport fighting, has been an official staple of the Chinese government supported martial arts since at least 1928. TKD wasn't even created untill several decades later and even then was never much of an influence. Pigua Quan, Cha Quan and Norrthern Shaolin are heavy kicking arts. Boxing has been part of the Chinese curriculum since the beggining but never caught on big probably because no boxer ever won a Sanda tournament. The biggest setback was the Japanese invasion in the 30's. When that happened the government stopped all funding for these schools and the inter-provincial championship tournaments and Chinese wushu took a giant step backwards. The Nanjing Acadamy and it's affilited schools were founded by the KMT. Chang Kai Shek put his man Zhang Zhi Jiang in charge



                              I'll say straight up that I am not to clear on what happened from the 50's to the 70's but the main thing that has changed recently is that, especially in the early 80's, the training became more specialized. The same athelete will train both performance Wushu and Sanda but there is no longer any real link between the 2 courses. The sanda fighters still use a lot of traditional conditioning methods from northern Shaolin and from Tan Tui but the forms have evolved so much in the past 20 years that they no longer have any real bearing on the fighting.
                              Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                              http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                              http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                              Bah!!! Puny Humans.


                              Comment


                                #30
                                Wastrel, ironically, makes an incredibly strong argument for the relevence of traditional Chinese training to groundfighting:

                                Originally posted by The Wastrel

                                It betrays a basic misunderstanding of what the "game" is. It's not about certain chokes or locks, it's about sensitivity, position, and guile..... the fact is all that strategy and sensitivity is what makes a game. Not knowing a "kimura".
                                Almost a word for word translation of one of my teachers favorite "speeches".

                                And not relevent to Wastrels comment ...... comaring "Sanshou", especially it's western version to wrestling is not just comparing training hours. I think it is a JOKE to compare American Sanshou anyways to ANY real professional sport. If you compared the Chinese pros it might be fairer. They've never even heard of Cung Lee here in China. IMHO the Sanshou weekend warriors of the west would get creamed by the PRC guys just like the TKD guy gets creamed by the MT guy in our downloads section.

                                It's about comparing amateurs to pros.

                                And not one I am making. Those who are frequently presented as top-level CMA practitioners demonstrate sub-standard grappling skills.
                                Sad but true.
                                Last edited by Omar; 10/22/2004 11:52pm, .
                                Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
                                http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

                                http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

                                Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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