Things to look for in a bad school

[Jamoke]

"Black Belt Clubs don't necessarily make a school bad, but it can be a warning sign."

a warning sign for what??

Don't lecture me CHICK!

"If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

[sanchin]

I just had some kid knock on my door and announce he was " from the local karate club". When I asked where they trained he would only say that it was "up the road". His style was "a mix of Goju and Shotokan" . Then he asked if I had any Martial Arts experience. I told him I was a first dan in Wado-Ryu at the full-time Dojo two miles away and he practically ran away . I wonder how many people he's convinced to sign up for his program, and how many of those will be put off martial arts for life when they discover he doesn't know what he's doing....

[JKDChick]

Jamoke, precisely how is it unreasonable to request credentials from an instructor of any sort? Would you learn from a university where none of the Professors would tell you what their degree was or where is was from?

Black Belt Clubs are not in themselves a fool-proof indicator of anything, that is true.

Not being happy, or feeling uncomfortable are personal issues that might come up after training for a while. Wouldn't be nice to have a pre-indicator, something to throw up a warning flag.

Also, and I'm putting on my moderator hat, I don't believe your vitriol was warranted here. No one has attacked you. Escalating flame wars are one thing -- people have the right to defend themselves -- but can we ALL (me too) keep random vicious attacks at a minimum. I really don't want this place to become like the ADCC which SUCKS DONKIES these days.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[The Wastrel]

Jamoke, you're completely wrong. That's no way to run a business. If I wanted to verify someone's training, I'd contact them myself. You say it's legitimate to say "not comfortable with the instructor". Well, that's a little general, shouldn't we be more specific about WHY someone wouldn't be comfortable with an instructor.
One thing: students can ruin it when a new perosn comes in, and the instructor is pretty much helpless to do anything about it. So I would add as a caveat, don't pay too much attention to the students.
I chose the school I'm attending now because I watched a couple classes, rolled once or twice and determined that I could learn a lot from the teacher.
Black Belt Clubs don't necessarily make a school bad, but it can be a warning sign. I have no problem with people charging more money for more training

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

[Jamoke]

you fukking morons! all of ya! except jeremy! because his question was a good one.

i bet the majority of you folks never took a day of training in your life.

black belt clubs? that makes them bad?
get on the phone and verify your rank? i'd punch you in the face if i were a karate instructor and you asked me to do that?

how about if the karate instructor said for you to get on the phone and verify your not a child molester, a wife beater, a drug addict, someone who jerks off to porn on line,..

you pathetic bastards!

how about just finding something legit to say, like your not happy or feel comfortable with the instructor. go wipe your asses!

"If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

[JKDChick]

The segregated classes thing was very common in karate a few years ago. I'm against the whole principle, ESPECIALLY if its what the women want.

What, in real life you're only going to fight other women? NO guys will ever attack you? Bull.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Amir]

baltasargracian - excelent post, all true.

8t88 - The concept you wrote about does sound real, and it should exist to some degree in any good Dojo. However I too feel that 2 years sounds like taking it to the extreme, particularly for light sparring (then again it is a subject of definition - what is light sparring exactly). I think Blade Windo opinion here stems from the particular M.A. he is doing in which the potential damage is indeed low for the beginers. However, this isn't always true.

Amir

[BJJ Grappler]

I would say no contact sparring, more importance put on forms than anything else, unrealistic self defense and sparring techniques taught.

"How Long Do You Think It Would Take Me To Beat Her, 5 Seconds?" - Shoot Figher Alex Keenan Reffering to a TKD 2nd Degree BB Who Thought She Could Take Him.

[Blad3]

hmmm okay, sounds kinda fightclub :P

[deus ex machina]

"lol yes, never heard of a no women allowed class :D"

I have. It was called "Coping With Testicular Cancer"...however, in retrospect, I'm sure there were women in it.

delirious

[Blad3]

lol yes, never heard of a no women allowed class :D

Agree with the above.

[JKDChick]

No sparring.
Excessive use of titles.
Bowing.
Forms.
No women, or women only allowed in gender segregated classes.

All of these things are bad.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[The Wastrel]

2 years is far too long. He's not worried about your training, he's worried about liability, and I can't really fault him for that.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

[Blad3]

cool deadly ess.

8t88 - no, that's not what I mean - you have to spar from day one: yes as you get better you can start sparring harder (though you should start fullcontact, just going easy on your first day.)

jumped straight into even light sparring, chances are he would either hurt himself or someone else given enough time. This lack of control goes both ways, and endangers everyone involved.

"light Sparring"??? you're probably not going to hurt yourself even in fullcontact if the more experienced/stronger person takes it easy (which he/she should do.) Fullcontact is a must, let alone light contact, which shouldn't even be allowed, unless the newer person really wants it to be.

Sifu's stance on sparring is not only smart, but encourages good fundamentals training as well.

I have to disagree totally that withdrawing sparring for that period of time sensible: I think it's far more fear then sensibility, he seems scared that, as you say, he is liable to damages.

The places were I go allow full contact sparring, albeit more controlled for newer people, or if someone is at a big disadvantage (say weight wise.) However grappling is usually full-on, because you're slighlty less likely to be KOed (matted area) or have something broken (due to tapping.)

but only at the high(er) levels

Certainly not only at higher levels! It MUST be done from day one, so that you can practise what you;ve learnt on a resisting opponent, be corrected whilst trying to get as good at those basic moves as you possibly can (as I say with fullcontact sparring, albeit going a little easy) from day one.


What do you train in now just out of interest 8t88?

[8t88]

no, short term contracts are fine - it;s when they want you to sign up for a entire year - monthly contracts for a ogood school usually mean unlimited training for a whole month, they're fair contracts, conveiniant and encourage you to go. However, if you are made to sign up for a year, and you don't like it - you can't quite :(

No sparring though, is the be all of end all - no sparring means a poor quality school in my opinion, which could quite possibly mean that the teacher is afraid of moves which don't work or he/she genuinely believes the moves are too dangerous.

As I said, constant sparring is a must really - apart from being effective it;s the most fun aspect of any martial art (even when you do get hurt.)

I agree with your position on sparring, however I think that statement needs alittle more clarification. Specifically, I think sparring is a critical training tool to any martial artist - but only at the high(er) levels. I used to train at a kungfu club where the Sifu *forbade* sparring until you had been around for about two years. Even then he only allowed it with competition gear on. While he never explicitly explained why, I think I got the gist of his reasoning.

Your comment about teachers not wanting sparring due to moves being too dangerous is right on. But in this case it's not the moves that are dangerous, but the people. If some person just started in martial arts at that club, and jumped straight into even light sparring, chances are he would either hurt himself or someone else given enough time. This lack of control goes both ways, and endangers everyone involved.

On the other hand, someone with previous MA experience should be able to walk in and start sparring because they know how to throw and take hits properly. However the Sifu, who's liable for what goes on in his establishment and with what he's teaching, doesn't know if Blackbelt Joe who just walked in got his skill from a Shaolin Temple or from K-Mart. Even if he's legit, the Sifu doesn't know if he's some egomaniac that's just trying to cause trouble or hurt someone.

Basically this Sifu was really cautious, and only doled out sparring privileges to students who demonstrated they were ready for it. At the time I thought he might have been hiding something. However in retrospect, I realize this Sifu's stance on sparring is not only smart, but encourages good fundamentals training as well.

8t88