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Things to look for in a bad school

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    #31
    I just had some kid knock on my door and announce he was " from the local karate club". When I asked where they trained he would only say that it was "up the road". His style was "a mix of Goju and Shotokan" . Then he asked if I had any Martial Arts experience. I told him I was a first dan in Wado-Ryu at the full-time Dojo two miles away and he practically ran away . I wonder how many people he's convinced to sign up for his program, and how many of those will be put off martial arts for life when they discover he doesn't know what he's doing....

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      #32
      "Black Belt Clubs don't necessarily make a school bad, but it can be a warning sign."

      a warning sign for what??

      Don't lecture me CHICK!

      "If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

      Comment


        #33
        Another pointer:

        Look at the veteran students and think if you would like to be like them, talk with them and ask about the teacher.

        Be careful of cult mentality, a fair evaluation of the teacher would probably be positive - these people chose to stay and learn at that place, but is shouldn't be too good.

        Try to talk with relatively new students and check their opinion.

        Amir

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          #34
          Jamoke, a warning sign that the school might not particularly care for quality of instruction, or for the progression of their students. I would never dismiss a school just because it had a BBC. I was defending BBC's on another thread, so don't make me out to be an asshole about this.

          **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
          Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

          Comment


            #35
            "so don't make me out to be an asshole about this".

            i'm not, i asked you a simple question. maybe some schools don't care, why wouldn't they, I would if i owned a school.

            "If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

            Comment


              #36
              AMEN! to baltasargracian and Amir. I was at a school where all the criteria applied.

              Yet I stayed because I let myself feel trapped--that there were no other options (FMAs are few and far between in my area). Boy, was I wrong.

              If you realize you're at a McDojo, GET OUT!!! It's ALL bad, and a waste of time/energy/emotion/money. If you're serious, you *will* find other and better ways to train.

              Comment


                #37
                no, that's not what I mean - you have to spar from day one: yes as you get better you can start sparring harder (though you should start fullcontact, just going easy on your first day.)
                I think it depends on what your martial art demands. If you need highly conditioned shins or cardio endurance, such as from particular striking arts or for entering competitions, then there's really no other way than to go at it from day one. On the other hand if you're in something that's more technically than physically demanding, then sparring before you've got good fundamentals that you can apply will make you sloppy. I'll expand on this in a second.

                "light Sparring"??? you're probably not going to hurt yourself even in fullcontact if the more experienced/stronger person takes it easy (which he/she should do.) Fullcontact is a must, let alone light contact, which shouldn't even be allowed, unless the newer person really wants it to be.
                I'm more worried about the new guy tossing stuff out that he can't control and hurting his partner. If the partner is indeed a 10-year senior student and gets his ass kicked by an out-of-control junior, then the senior deserved it, and should probably return his belt to the Goodwill Store where he got it. However I find that the more common case is intermediate students working with new students. If they follow your sparring suggestion, then I'd be worried in both cases - intermediate maybe not being experienced enough to handle an out-of-control new guy, or the intermediate just getting pissed off at the out-of-control new guy and losing it himself. Please understand by "out-of-control", I don't mean foaming at the mouth. I'm refering to some guy who gets too excited and unleashes the Fight Club, gets his pride bruised alittle by getting hit a few times and unleases the Fight Club, or is just some stupid punk who doesn't realize the consequences of kicking someone in the kidney (... upon unleashing the Fight Club).

                I have to disagree totally that withdrawing sparring for that period of time sensible: I think it's far more fear then sensibility, he seems scared that, as you say, he is liable to damages.

                The places were I go allow full contact sparring, albeit more controlled for newer people, or if someone is at a big disadvantage (say weight wise.) However grappling is usually full-on, because you're slighlty less likely to be KOed (matted area) or have something broken (due to tapping.)

                <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:
                Certainly not only at higher levels! It MUST be done from day one, so that you can practise what you;ve learnt on a resisting opponent, be corrected whilst trying to get as good at those basic moves as you possibly can (as I say with fullcontact sparring, albeit going a little easy) from day one.
                <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>

                I wrote earlier that I'd expand on a point. I trained briefly at a club that had sparring right off the bat, for students new and experienced. The Sensei wanted his students to know how to apply the techniques that he taught. It literally looked like a hockey fight between any two people, with no recognizable techniques being used. My previous comment about too early sparring causing sloppy technique is because of this. If you're sparring, and grabbing and punching works, then you won't need to train techniques, just train grabbing and punching harder/faster. I've come to understand that the first thing that goes out the window when you get excited is technique. If you've got no technique to start with, then training in a martial art is just wasting your time. In all fairness to this school, some of the seniors had pretty good technique in sparring; but I feel that is a result of training techniques, not sparring or some combination of the two.

                What do you train in now just out of interest 8t88?
                I just focus on Wing Chun. However an interesting thing I've noticed is that Wing Chun taught by a particular Sifu, practiced by a particular student, or codified by a particular organization, is often quite different from another. No limits, just limited people.

                8t88

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                  #38
                  2 years is far too long. He's not worried about your training, he's worried about liability, and I can't really fault him for that.

                  **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                  Please see my previous post.

                  8t88

                  Comment


                    #39

                    The concept you wrote about does sound real, and it should exist to some degree in any good Dojo. However I too feel that 2 years sounds like taking it to the extreme, particularly for light sparring (then again it is a subject of definition - what is light sparring exactly). I think Blade Windo opinion here stems from the particular M.A. he is doing in which the potential damage is indeed low for the beginers. However, this isn't always true.

                    Amir
                    I think two years is alittle long too. I didn't -and still don't- like it, but I understand. As I've posted previously, I think sparring only helps develop a martial art insofar as it develops your application of the martial technique. I do full contact sparring now, and I find myself using techniques I learned because I've trained myself to. I know for a fact that when I was sparring back when I started (I just did it outside), I didn't apply techniques, just hit as hard and fast as I could within limit.

                    I think that forms and drills look all pretty like they do because you're not really under any pressure; hence the desire for people to spar to add the "real world" to the ideal. My position on "too early" sparring comes from the fact that all fights/sparring looks to me like a boxing match, at least for the first little bit. No stances, no fancy stuff, no set-up/stare-downs/entrance music. Why this is I don't know, but it happens. The difference is that a beginner trying to spar will look like a boxer (no offence to boxers) and do whatever he can from that position. Someone with experience in an art will look like a boxer, will fight like the newbie, but will also (hopefully) toss out a few trained techniques, which are by definition more effective than what an untrained person would do in that situation. Sparring before you've got anything to spar with develops excellent fighting skills, but poor techniques.

                    8t88

                    Comment


                      #40
                      8t88,
                      By your comments above, I take it you know very little about boxing. A beginner trying to spar does not look like a boxer, neither does your typical TMAist. Additionally, grappling arts should begin sparring immediately. You make a good point here about avoiding sparring in order to avoid reinforcing bad habits, but I would really not say that untrained newbie's resemble boxers. To me, that's like saying that an untrained newbie who drops into what looks like a side guard or a cat stance looks like a karateka-maybe to someone who doesn't know, but...

                      **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                      Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Jamoke,
                        Don't you know you only use one question mark when you're asking a simple question? When you use two, it's a super-question!!
                        Anyway, I'm not quite sure I understand your response. Care about what?

                        **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                        Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                        Comment


                          #42
                          By your comments above, I take it you know very little about boxing. A beginner trying to spar does not look like a boxer, neither does your typical TMAist. Additionally, grappling arts should begin sparring immediately. You make a good point here about avoiding sparring in order to avoid reinforcing bad habits, but I would really not say that untrained newbie's resemble boxers.
                          You're right -I don't box.

                          I didn't write that newbie's spar LIKE boxers, I wrote they (try to) LOOK like them. From what I've seen if someone with no idea is asked to spar, right off the bat they'll put the arms up, drop the head, and maybe hop around abit and weave around. What happens following that does not resemble boxing, usually it looks more like groveling for mercy or cowering. However I find if you toss a pair of gloves at someone, that's immediately what they'll start to do during the pre-fight part.

                          [quote]
                          To me, that's like saying that an untrained newbie who drops into what looks like a side guard or a cat stance looks like a karateka-maybe to someone who doesn't know, but...
                          ]/quote]

                          I agree with this also. But the thing is I don't really see people who don't know what they're doing drop into cat-stance like this. Hell, I don't even see people who KNOW what they're doing drop into cat-stance like this. I find that even traditional martial guys will resemble boxers while sparring -in appearance at least. Newbies will try to do whatever they've seen before, and boxing is a fairly prevalent throughout North America.

                          8t88

                          Comment


                            #43
                            "What happens following that does not resemble boxing, usually it looks more like groveling for mercy or cowering."

                            LOL....So I take it you've seen me fight...

                            **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                            Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                            Comment


                              #44
                              But Osiris, beginners can't usually tell if someone's technique is shitty.

                              **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
                              Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Someone can start sparring within 3 to 6 months with a proper instructor. I've trained people for full contact fights with not much more training than that.

                                Fighting and sparring really isn't rocket science.

                                Like Bruce Lee once said:

                                "Before I studied martial arts, a punch was just a punch, and a kick was just a kick. When I studied the arts suddenly a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick no longer just a kick. Now that I understand the arts, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

                                Theres nothing mystical or overly complex about ANY of this stuff.

                                Anyone who tries to sell you on the "pinpoint accuracy" and "devestating power" gained after years of study is blowing hot air out of his ass.

                                I've seen people with just above average athleticism develop amazing skills in months. They have more power and accuracy than people who have been training for 5 times as long as them.

                                Its all in the way you train.
                                "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


                                Reverse punch Kiaii!!!

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