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Is Fist-Fire Bullshido?

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    Is Fist-Fire Bullshido?

    So over at http://www.tacticalshooting.com/
    this guy named Middlebrooks teaches a very unorthodox shooting system. The flashy crap on the front page and general arrogance of his prose gives it a "SCARS"-like bullshido look. But on the other hand, he's well regarded by several SBG instructors, and he and his students have won lots of 'real-world' oriented shooting competitions.

    Here's a quote by him.

    Doesn't that sound like Matt Thortons 'street vs. sport' article?


    Where I get the bullshido part from is he's basically accusing the rest of the professional gun instruction world of being garbage. I mean his shooting stances are the opposite of just about every other instructor. I'm curious who is teaching the "deeper horse stance" of shooting stances. And he's really really expensive.

    atek3

    #2
    I've seen Israeli instructors teach a deep horse stance when shooting.
    It was on a program about Americans going on holiday to Israel to learn survival techniques in the Gaza Strip. Talk about hard core RBSD.
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989

    Comment


      #3
      If what he posts is true then his instructors can shoot well. I see nothing radical in what he is teaching and would, with cautious optimism, be interested in taking one of his classes to see what this sytem is all about. I'd probably do some mor research before plopping down the cash. Shooting is like martial arts - you learn from different systems and styles and take a little bit from each as you find what works best for you.

      The one thing that I found interesting is that his prose seem to targeting a civilian audience. In fact, the only testimonial I found complelling at all was the one Marine FAST Company Captain. But the curriculum looks interesting and they CAN shoot.

      Comment


        #4
        Richard Marchinko once wrote, and I am paraphrasing here because I don't have the copy of the book handy, "Left eye, right eye, one hand, two hand, doesn't matter as long as you hit the target."

        Sums up my thoughts on shooting.
        "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
        -My three year old trash talking to me

        "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
        -The Honky Tonk Man

        "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
        -My Father to me one day

        "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
        -Don Gwinn

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Peter H.
          Richard Marchinko once wrote, and I am paraphrasing here because I don't have the copy of the book handy, "Left eye, right eye, one hand, two hand, doesn't matter as long as you hit the target."

          Sums up my thoughts on shooting.
          That's true, but in the vast majority of cases that ability comes from good technique...and practice.

          Comment


            #6
            My "Pistol-Do" mainly comes from Chuck Taylor's techniques which themselves are a refinement of Jeff Cooper's Modern Technique of the Pistol. I can clear a plate rack pretty darn fast, but that guy... jesus... he cleared the rack faster weakhanded than I can TWO handed.
            Oh SamHarber, israeli pistol technique is total bullshido. For example, they had a problem of the soldiers negligently discharging their pistols, so rather than teach good pistol technique, they started carrying their pistols WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. Then on the Draw they would use the "israeli swipe" to charge the pistol and then fire. Talk about a waste of time.

            Lemme know if anyone goes to try the 'fist-fire' stuff.

            atek3

            Comment


              #7
              I really liked Clint Smith's take on some of the bizarre new concepts coming out. To our class, he said something along the lines of, "I don't care what you call it. All that matters is that you are able to put your rounds on target, where you need them, as much as you need them as many times as you need them until the threat is gone. No ninja stuff is required. It is a lot simpler if you bypass all the ninja cross bar fist fire RECON Special Forces Spetnatz point shooting while using the Force and just shoot the bad guys and shoot them well."
              Clint Smith is the owner of Thunder Ranch.

              Oh and it looks like Fist-Fire got exposed as a bullshido
              http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ht=middlebrook

              atek3

              Comment


                #8
                Is FIST-FIRE is Bullshido?

                Judge for yourself, just click on these links for some FREE video downloads:


                Segment #1: "Surgical Point Shooting"

                http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=429149807

                Segment #2: "High Speed Point Shooting"

                http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=429149807

                Segment #3: More High Speed Point Shooting"

                http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=429149807

                Segment #4: "Integrating Point Shooting with Sighted Fire"

                http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=429149807

                Cheers,

                D.R. Middlebrooks
                www.TacticalShooting.com
                Last edited by DRM; 1/19/2008 8:27am, .

                Comment


                  #9

                  And if FIST-FIRE is Bullshido, then are all these guys wrong?


                  http://www.tacticalshooting.com/testimonials.html


                  And if FIST-FIRE is Bullshido, do we have to give all these shooting titles back?

                  1st Place: 1998 Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 Virginia State IDPA - ESP State Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA -- ESP State Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA - Ladies State Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 North Carolina IDPA - ESP State Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA - ESP Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA Ladies Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - ESP Champion

                  1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - Ladies Champion

                  1st Place: 1999 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion

                  1st Place: 1999 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 Eastern Regional IDPA - CDP Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - CDP Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - ESP Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - Ladies Champion

                  1st Place: 2000 Tennessee State IDPA - ESP Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Ladies Stock Gun World Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - SSP Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - SSP Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA - SSP Champion

                  1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA Ladies Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Commonwealth Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun World Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 All Navy Match - All Navy National Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Florida State IDPA - ESP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2002 Mississippi State IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Alabama IDPA - ESP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Kentucky-Tennessee IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Commonwealth Cups IDPA - SSP Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Winchester Challenge - IDPA World Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion

                  1st Place: 2003 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 Indiana State IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 Southern Regional IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Shoot Off Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 N.C. Tactical Invitational 3-Gun Championship - Match Champion

                  1st Place: 2004 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 Arkansas State IDPA - SSP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 Maryland State IDPA - ESP State Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 USPSA Area 6 Championships - Limited-10 Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 MGM IRONMAN 3-Gun Championships - Tactical Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 Carolina Tactical Invitational 3-Gun - Match Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 Steel Challenge - IDPA ESP World Speed Shooting Champion

                  1st Place: 2005 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

                  1st Place: 2006 Arkansas USPSA 3-Gun Championships - Limited State Champion

                  1st Place: 2007 VA Indoor Regional IDPA Championships - ESP Champion

                  1st Place:
                  2007 Tri State Regional IDPA Championships - SSP Champion

                  1st Place: 2007 Blackwater Regional Challenge - Match Champion

                  1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Top Military National Champion

                  1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Top Lady National Champion

                  1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Top LEO National Champion

                  1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Mid-size Pistol National Champion
                  Last edited by DRM; 2/07/2008 5:16pm, .

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Who won all these matches

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by atek3

                      Where I get the bullshido part from is he's basically accusing the rest of the professional gun instruction world of being garbage...
                      That is correct...

                      Most Firearms Trainers can't shoot and are stuck in the dogma of the last century. They refuse to test, they downplay the importance of competition and insist that MINDSET & TACTICS are much more important than TECHNIQUE.... :rolleyes:

                      I mean his shooting stances are the opposite of just about every other instructor...
                      Correct again...

                      Most shooting techniques are simply a "stance" and are basically one dimensional. FIST-FIRE is a complete system of shooting and fighting with firearms. And our specialty is handguns, the hardest of all firearms to master.

                      The foundation of the system is comprised of multiple levels of weapons presentations, each one built upon the other. We also have numerous default shooting positions as well.

                      We have proven that FIST-FIRE works as good or better than anything the top shooters are using today. We have also tested it in 'Force on Force' sceanrios where tens of thousands of rounds of SIMUNITIONS were used on resisting opponents. Further, FIST-FIRE was designed to blend seamlessly with MMA fighting technqiues. Which is why It's being called "THE Martial Art of Shooting".

                      Bottom Line: We are a performance based Tactical Shooting school. I have been shooting Combat Matches since the mid 1970's at the World Class Level, and FIST-FIRE is what has evolved out of my 30 years of combat shooting, teaching and custom gun building experience.

                      :qright7:

                      Cheers,

                      D.R. Middlebrooks
                      www.TacticalShooting.com
                      Last edited by DRM; 1/20/2008 11:06am, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by mattkiley
                        Who won all these matches
                        Me and some of my Fist-Fire Instructors...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          OK... so can you summarize (like try to keep it to a few paragraphs) why your system is better than Isosoles/Weaver/Chapman, assuming I don't have tendinitis in my hands? And how it is fundamentally different? HOW is it better? What is your footwork like? Do you teach sighted fire or point shooting? What do you do for failure drills (as in equipment failure, not the PC name for the Mozambique)? etc.

                          Pretend I'm an important client, and want a preview of what I'm paying for without sitting down and watching video. What happens here that doesn't at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            This is great stuff. I'm looking forward to more responses.

                            from what I've researched, it seems like shooting stances change and evolve based on threats faced, body armor worn, and other factors. From just casual research, it looks like as people wear more body armor, that low horse stance becomes safer and more viable again. It seems also that the more "oblique" stances are still highly usable and needed.

                            nothing here looks like Bullshido to me. looks like pressure testing. looks like Matt Thornton Aliveness theory.

                            thanks for more responses. looking forward to it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              So...I'm not gonna claim to know anything about serious tactical shooting, not this system nor any other. All my real training is with hand held weapons and with no weapons so you can read this post and take it with that in mind.

                              But, basically there are what I feel to be pretty universal guidelines to martial arts and combat related stuff in general that kind of affects my perception of the functionality of certain training methods and theories about what's going to work "for real", and I *really* liked what I saw in these videos.

                              if I was in the market for a tactical shooting course (and I hope I will be at some point in the future) then I'd definitely take a closer look at this system and see what it has to offer.

                              I guess if you wanted to be cynical or maybe realistic then yes the videos he posted are a marketing device...but the dude can definitely shoot and a lot of the stuff he says in the vids and what I've seen on this thread seem to jive pretty well with my perception of these universal guidelines of effective combat training.

                              Take it as one may...but I dug the vids.

                              Comment

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