BJJ Grandmaster

[Nid]

"Advanced" meaning....complicated?

[Ronin]

well, bunnyman, that is subjective, no?

[simps76]

Originally posted by Anthony
What are we in High School, fucktard?

Oh wait, maybe you are.

My point is, not everyone considers Helio the
grandmaster Dumbass Nutrider.

[NHB_Ben]

http://www.bjj.org/lineage.html

[Pandinha]

Originally posted by simps76
My point is, not everyone considers Helio the
grandmaster Dumbass Nutrider.

Was it calling you a fucktard? Or maybe implying you're still in highschool that hurt your wittle feelings?

::Y A W N::

[Dochter]

Its funny, this site is in part about martial myths and yet ones like Helio transformed all groundwork to what we see today remain.

I mean come on, there were lots of people training together and focusing on ground work, of course it progressed. Did helio do a lot for bjj, duh. That doesn't excuse idolatry.

[Nid]

Beav,

Just wondering what you mean by advanced, since it was in quotes.

[Guy Mendiola]

Originally posted by simps76
I dare you to go tell that to Carlson. Helio is one of the founding fathers, but not THE founding father.

True, If Carlos Gracie hadn't passed away then he would've been the Grandmaster.

[Dochter]

NO NO NO! BJJ is entirely the creation of Helio, who took the techniques and made them effective for people smaller than their opponents.

[JohnnyS]

It seems to me to be ridiculous to say Kosen Judo puts BJJ to shame without any proof, except for what you've seen in books.

[Pandinha]

Ronin is shit stirring. Come on now, you should know him better by now! :)

[JohnnyS]

Sorry, I've been away from the forums and I'm not really up on people's on-line personalities at the moment.

[Yrkoon9]

This is going to be a semi-long post illustrating why *I THINK* GJJ is different and inferior to BJJ.

Okay, we all know that Rorion is a money-grubbing loser who bamboozle the rest of his family out of the market with his trademark. So what we have is Helio/Rorion & Royce teaching GJJ - the trademarked and authentic one of a kind 'REAL' brazilian jiu jitsu. As we all remember from the carefull marketing on Rorions part Helio 'created' GJJ and was undefeated blah blah blah. Well, we know that is bullshit. One of his own students beat him, and Carlson was forced to come after and whoop the guy. We also know that Kimura beat Helio. We also know that Helio didn't 'create' anything. He watched his brothers and trained JJ, modifying some of the techniques. He didn't create a damn thing. So at this point GJJ is on shaky ground. It was being sold and marketed in a deceptive manner.

BJJ on the other hand is the generic term that everyone is forced to use who is not authorized to teach the official 'GJJ'. You have a whole other lineage like Carlson who teaches basically the same stuff. It gets a little murky as the Gracie family descends and people train with different teachers.

But what exactly is the difference? I'll tell you the difference. GJJ IS INFERIOR TO BJJ. WHAT?!?!?!

Yes, thats right. INFERIOR! You want to know why? Because Helio/Rorion hide the art to people outside the family. Yes. Its the same old bullshit bullshido that happens in other arts. They teach the most basic shit and keep knowledge from their students. Now Im sure that 'someone' is going to come up and 'defend' the GJJ clan. Let me shut you down right from the start.

1) The torrence academy was notorious for hiding their stuff. My proof of this was the exodus of some of their students. For example, Marc Laimon and Ethan Milius bailed on them and went to the Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club to train. They were living testimonials to the BS that was going on. They said it themselves, they were actually being held back. He and Marc both got sick of the games Rorion would play at Torrence. Over the years I have met many like them. They didn't know what they were missing until they went elsewhere.

2) At BHJJC we had many students from GJJ Torrence who would come to train with us. Multi-stripe blues were STILL trying to pass the guard with one arm in and one arm out. Like fucking newbies they would get triangled over and over and over with no clue. HELLO YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT SHIT THAT SUCKS. Marc and Ethan both laughed at this sort of thing. Their 'technique' was so basic and lame that white belts were tapping out Torrence vets. It was people like Marc and Ethan who broke out of that archaic grappling to evolve into something greater. They experimented with the De La Riva guard, which was conveniently absent at Torrence. They explored leg locks which had previously been taboo. etc etc.

3) There are many many many instances where Rorion would chide his family for 'showing too much', for example when Renzo/Kukuk came out with their video series in the late 90's Rorion tripped out and said they were showing too much. Can you believe that shit? Showing too much? You can look at Rorions own tape series and see what lame crap they were trying to sell. The same dopey moves done in several variations. No depth or substance - and yes, even the one arm in and one arm out guard pass.

4) GJJ's success was built on Royce's success in the UFC. It was rhetorically repeated over and over that GJJ is the source and everything else was crap. You had to learn from them or you weren't learning the 'real' stuff. In the mean time, the 'other' stuff had begun to infiltrate the US and the GJJ myth was beginning to be dismantled. Carlson's guys were handling everyone. Royce even lost to Wallid. Suddenly the myth was shattered. It was possible that there was a better method of teaching, or other teachers who could be better?!?! The US became flooded with QUALITY teachers and their students began to dominate. Look at the Machado's for example.

5) The proof is in the pudding. As BJJ competitions began to flourish you saw the emergence of a new breed of fighter. Cross trained. Specialized. All kinds. But in the BJJ tournaments, the GJJ guys found themselves out of their element. They were losing badly. Teachers who were not afraid to show more started to develop quality competitors who schooled the GJJ boys. Even today, you find that they get owned when they try to compete. You won't see many GJJ reps at the podium. So you know what they did? They shrivelled up, and started their 'own' competitions. Open to THEIR students. Does that sound a lot like some other McDojo's of the past? They even began to change the rules because, *GASP*, people were beating them at their own game.

6) BJJ encourages cross training while GJJ are trying to remain purists. Only recently have they begun to break this mold and are far behind the BJJ guys who recognized the importance of crosstraining. Another good comparison would be Carlson's guys who began boxing to improve their vale tudo game. Nowadays the GJJ fighters are playing catch up. They tried to remain purists too long. Sound like McDojo closed mindedness to me. Case in point Genki v Royler. Pure GJJ v crosstrained BJJ type. There really isn't much of a comparison.

Even in the 'pure' GJJ grappling style they have not evolved. Other BJJ people are continuing to develop and evolve the art. They recognize the importance of adding wrestling and sambo and judo. For example - again I will mention Wallid v Royce. Modern day BJJ meets traditional GJJ. GJJ loses.

So what exactly am I saying? I am saying that GJJ and BJJ are not the same. The terms are not interchangeable. I am also saying that GJJ is inferior to BJJ. I recognize that this might provoke some knee jerk reactionaries that may feel challenged. I would liken this to many McDojo practictioners responses when confronted with reality. They become angry and refuse to accept what many have already realized. Now this is *MY* opinion, and like any opinion it is biased. It is probably not 100% accurate in every word and detail. But by and large I think the information I have provided should convince people that the reality is BJJ has evolved, and GJJ is trying to cling to its glory days as it basked in the public's ignorance. I urge you, if you disagree, to go see for yourself. Compare and try to make an objective decision on the subject. I think you will find that what I have said is true. BJJ > GJJ.

[supercrap]

Awesome post.

[bushi51]

Great Post. I am new to the politics of the Gracie family.