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A question about swordplay and "Aliveness"

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    A question about swordplay and "Aliveness"

    For those of you who would know better, because I know close to shit about swordplay (save a few months of epei) I've heard the exact same argument regaurding most forms of swordplay as I've heard with the MMA vs. TMA discussions (or rather the reverse).

    In the case of say, Kendo or fencing (just generally, no specifics) I've heard that the method taught would be unrealistic as its geared more towards sport, then say Kenjutsu or "classical" sabre or rapier (of which I have no idea the difference between classical and sport sabre). But I've also heard a great deal of people say that most (or at least a few) kendo IS kenjutsu, just under a more modern name.

    Now obviously it really doesn't matter, because who honestly carries a sword these days, but as a matter of curiousity, would the aspect of "aliveness" count just as much, or am I missing something all together here?

    #2
    I think "aliveness" is as good for weapon arts as it is for empty-handed arts
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!

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      #3
      It's there, but that's not usually the reasons we complain about kendo and sport fencing.

      When it comes to sparring, at least with the group I work with, it involves minor armor and schlagers or blunted sabres for that. For katana wise it's either no armor with shinai, or lighter armor with bokken. On top of all that there's just the drills to focus on blade alignment and proper form, etc. The Sports do some of that.

      The main issue with sport arts is the unrealistic rules, not the methods. Sport Fencing is pretty back and forth and doesn't take into account the sides, you win the point if you strike first, even if you get nailed immediately after, and of course the weight and balance of foils, epees, and sabres is rather sad.

      So yeah, aliveness is important, it's very important to spar in a number of ways (Full contact light weapons no gear to the partial contact with blunted blades and protective gear), but that's not the MAIN reason sport arts are problematic in their approach?

      Comment


        #4
        The biggest issue with "aliveness" and weapons is the problem of "trading blows".
        Sure that works with bare fists, taking a shot to get in and do your stuff is pretty common, but when you add a sharpened weapon, its a whole new story, getting your head chopped off to get in a cut is NOT the prefered method.
        While "full contact" aprring can be done, the element of realisim MUST be enforced, more so than on any other system.
        Trading blows with a rattan stick is one thing, you DO NOT do that with blades, heck, you wouldn't do that with lead pipes !!
        Kenjutsu is indeed THE art in which it holds true that, it MAY be too deadly for "live sparring".

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          #5
          IAdo is the same way with Kenjutsu, but I have our instructor Shihan Nishiuchi doesn't have a problem getting bokken and having people spar with those, or shinai for that matter.
          "did Phrost just call me a 'bitch'?"-Omega

          "The collective IQ of bullshido was reduced with the departure of Wastrel. It further dropped due to the retention of (Serious Harm)."
          - The all knowing Dochter

          "but like, it's possible to develop such a level of reflex that you can literally detect someones movements through sensitivity, and block without even thinking"-Apostol

          That's the amazing thing about Ninjas, for sneeky cocksuckers, they are all over the place, like dog shit on your shoe.-Ronin69

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            #6
            Originally posted by ronin69
            The biggest issue with "aliveness" and weapons is the problem of "trading blows".
            Sure that works with bare fists, taking a shot to get in and do your stuff is pretty common, but when you add a sharpened weapon, its a whole new story, getting your head chopped off to get in a cut is NOT the prefered method.
            While "full contact" aprring can be done, the element of realisim MUST be enforced, more so than on any other system.
            Trading blows with a rattan stick is one thing, you DO NOT do that with blades, heck, you wouldn't do that with lead pipes !!
            Kenjutsu is indeed THE art in which it holds true that, it MAY be too deadly for "live sparring".
            In terms of sword practice wouldn't you just use heavy wooden blades to simulate? Gloves might be good as well.

            Comment


              #7
              Yes, in kenjutsu, the bokken /bokuto is used in "sparring" even "free sparring" to an extent, but since the bokken can crush bones and even kill, "full contact" even with protective armour is NOT a good idea, hince the creation of Kendo and the bamboo ass picker.

              Comment


                #8
                bamboo ass picker is not a funny thing man. In the karate classes if she gets mad enough, when were doing something stupid over and over again she'll slap the arm, leg, stomach, with the shinai and then we magically do it right!
                "did Phrost just call me a 'bitch'?"-Omega

                "The collective IQ of bullshido was reduced with the departure of Wastrel. It further dropped due to the retention of (Serious Harm)."
                - The all knowing Dochter

                "but like, it's possible to develop such a level of reflex that you can literally detect someones movements through sensitivity, and block without even thinking"-Apostol

                That's the amazing thing about Ninjas, for sneeky cocksuckers, they are all over the place, like dog shit on your shoe.-Ronin69

                Comment


                  #9
                  A shinai is about, oh 100 times more pleasant than a bokken.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I always thought that people were just whining about not sparring with bokken, but then I actually held one of those fuckers! Oh man you do NOT want to get hit with that regardless of the circumstances. They put escrima sticks and baseball bats to shame!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      A good bokken is a serious piece of wood, it can shatter a katana blade, easily.
                      Think of the hardest piece of hardwood you ever felt, now imagine that coming down, full speed, full force, on your forehead...on your shoulder...on your wrist...across your floating ribs...get the picture?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        just imagine full sparring with baseball bats, not the greatest idea in the whole world, Japanese swordsmanship is fairly comprehensive so somebody wishing to gain true proficiency would probably have to study all: full contact sparring with shinai, light contact and kata with bokken, and kata and drawing with iaito, and cutting with a live blade. I'm not sure if any one art teaches all of these, the only arts I know of are kendo (shinai), kenjutsu, iaido (iaito and blade), iaijutsu, battodo, and battajutsu. It is all rather confusing, and I'm sure could be very time consuming for the hobbyist. Just imagine all of that time spent on a martial art that many could consider practically useless.
                        "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

                        Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          try this http://www.dogbrothers.tv/videoclips/promo01.wmv
                          Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
                          -Styles i train in-
                          Judo
                          Bjj
                          Mtkickboxing
                          Western boxing
                          Wrestling

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I have to say this:
                            What the dog brothers do, is nothing new, the escrima guys have done full contact stick work for ages, but, that clips illustrates, in many ways, all that is BAD with full contact stick fighting:
                            First, you know that, without the headgear, that fights would be very different.
                            Second, replace those rattan sticks with hardwood ones or pipes and what would you have?
                            I know the purpose is to hone your speed and placement and such, BUT the "downside" of that kind of training should be noted, and from what I see/hear, it isn't.
                            And you CAN'T train like that with bokkens.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              sure you could............. once
                              "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

                              Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!

                              Comment

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