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    american kenpo- the lesson

    well the other thread has become some kind of cock measuring contest between some kenpo nutriders, so I'll start this one fresh. heres the old thread-
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...5&pagenumber=1

    I finally got off my arse today and went to a kenpo class. first thing I noticed was that it was quite a nice place- half of it was hardwood the other was soft carpet, they had a mirror on one wall, it was big and spacious and they had a little kitchen and a nice bathroom. good stuff. better than my muay thai toilet of horrors.

    second, this is a young club. apart from the instructor, the highest rank there was blue belt. I dont know what blue belt is but its not very high, judging by the person who held it. apart from the short fat lady with the blue belt, we had another short fat lady with a yellow belt, a short fat lady with no belt, a black guy who was quite well built, the dude who invited me who is a bit fat and around 5'10, and a taller guy, about 6'2, medium build, about 15-16 years old.

    first thing I do when we get there is my skipping. i love skipping. 15 minutes or so of skipping is my usual starter, and the sensei didnt seem to mind. we then did a warm up, which constisted of running from one end of the hall to the other, stopping occasionally to do various things like press ups and crunches. I think I might have just broke a sweat, and this is after a good amount of skipping as well. after this we did some kind of insane bowing ritual (I didnt even try to follow it) and moved onto stances, namely the bow and arrow stance, and the normal kenpo 50/50 stance.

    now coming from muay thai I kind of have an aversion to just planting my front foot on the ground like that, but the sensei seemed quite happy for me to disregard the stance. he also said that in kenpo, we keep our rear hand across our stomach to counter low kicks. I just smiled and nodded and kept my hands up. he didnt press it.

    after some stance stuff we moved onto a blocking form. i think most of us know how katas go, this was basically just moving around doing a series of blocks. I find these kind of things hard to remember, so i wont bore with the details. after that we started on the self defense form thingies.

    Now I can't speak for the rest you, but the last time I saw a fight that started by someone grabbing the collar of someones shirt then looking at them blankly was probably somewhere around primary school. I was determined to learn something useful though so I didnt make the mention. the first thing we learnt was to do an outside block against the arm to bash it away, then a front snap kick to the goolies, followed by a knife hand strike to the neck, cos the guy has leaned over from the goolie smash. these are all executed with the right side of the body. i dont know what happened to mr lefty during all of this, he just sort of hung there. to be honest, this is basically a kick to the nuts. take the other crap away and thats all it is, kicking someone in the nuts when they have grabbed your shirt. easy.

    the second one was just as ludicrous, if not moreso. this involved someone grabbing you with both hands and pulling you towards them. from here you punch them in the face with your right after grabbing one of their hands with your left and crushing the other to your chest with your forearm. you then bring your right down and smash it across their extended arms, lift your right up to an elbow strike, and then a second elbow strike for good measure.

    well, where to start. at least now I know what to do if a complete pussy or a seven year old child grabs my shirt. honestly, if you cant break away from someone grabbing your hands like this with their weak arm you need to stop fighting gorillas and get the fuck in the gym.

    after this most of the class except me and the tall guy went down the back to work on various other forms. me and tall guy must've done those two forms a million times, over and over. they didnt get any less stupid though. after a while the sensei bought out a bag, and I broke the torture by asking him if we could join the main class. bagwork I thought, fun fun. however, bagwork was short lived. we spent most of our time bashing our forearms against each others in two lines, while one person spent about a minute smacking the bag with various kicks.

    now im not a big guy- 5'10 and about 135-140 pounds. I would say that every one of these people outweighed me. and im not usually one to brag, but in a kicking contest they would be my bitches. even musclemans kicks were poor. myself and the sensei seemed about even, but he has a few years experience on me. one thing I will point out here- we did a sum total of about 5 minutes on punches, out of 2.5 hours. and about 5 minutes of kicking. this should give you some idea of the amount of self defense form stuff we did.

    after this, the rest of the class went through more of these forms. I honestly have to admire their dedication, there is no way I could remember such a huge amount of crap, especially if i was just a yellow belt. I watched for a while, then went to a corner and shadow boxed. got some weird looks but meh. fuck em. i think i was supposed to be doing the blocking kata.

    finally, it ended. no warm down, and to be honest I was dry as a bone- the hardest workout had been the skipping i did at the start, and the 40 press ups. a regular MT lessons consists of about 300 press ups all up, so i wasnt exactly phased by this. I did a bit of skipping, thanked the instructor, and went home.

    Now I might come off as a bit harsh here. the club is very new, and most of the people there probably have all up less experience than me in MA. the sensei was a nice guy, and they seemed to train the forms with a fair bit of contact. the forearm conditioning was ok as well, been a while since I did any of that, and they didnt have any gear in to spar with yet. overall I wouldnt class it as a mcdojo- they werent trying to sell me shit, or make me sign anything, and they werent trying to convince me of any deadly ninja crap. I won't be going back though.
    Last edited by alex; 6/08/2004 5:52am, .

    #2
    It certainly isnt the worse form of mcdojoism out there....I spose.

    Comment


      #3
      It doesn't sound like it was really a McDojo. Not a good school, either, but I didn't see anything about the instructor promising to make you a bl4ck B3L7 in two years for the low-low price of a new Mercedes, and it didn't sound like he was promoting his school as t3h uLtim4t3 d3d1y. Sure, I wouldn't train there if I had any other choices, but you might find Muscleman useful as a punching dummy.

      Comment


        #4
        Well.....I think it is cool you where open minded enough to give it a try, if you think it isn't for you then cool don't go back. At least you had the balls to try it out before you wrote it off.........If you get a chance some time though you should try to find or observe an advanced or black belt kenpo class move it is like night and day.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: american kenpo- the lesson

          Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
          well the other thread has become some kind of cock measuring contest between some kenpo nutriders, so I'll start this one fresh. heres the old thread-
          http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...5&pagenumber=1

          I finally got off my arse today and went to a kenpo class. first thing I noticed was that it was quite a nice place- half of it was hardwood the other was soft carpet, they had a mirror on one wall, it was big and spacious and they had a little kitchen and a nice bathroom. good stuff. better than my muay thai toilet of horrors.

          second, this is a young club. apart from the instructor, the highest rank there was blue belt. I dont know what blue belt is but its not very high, judging by the person who held it. apart from the short fat lady with the blue belt, we had another short fat lady with a yellow belt, a short fat lady with no belt, a black guy who was quite well built, the dude who invited me who is a bit fat and around 5'10, and a taller guy, about 6'2, medium build, about 15-16 years old.

          first thing I do when we get there is my skipping. i love skipping. 15 minutes or so of skipping is my usual starter, and the sensei didnt seem to mind. we then did a warm up, which constisted of running from one end of the hall to the other, stopping occasionally to do various things like press ups and crunches. I think I might have just broke a sweat, and this is after a good amount of skipping as well. after this we did some kind of insane bowing ritual (I didnt even try to follow it) and moved onto stances, namely the bow and arrow stance, and the normal kenpo 50/50 stance.

          now coming from muay thai I kind of have an aversion to just planting my front foot on the ground like that, but the sensei seemed quite happy for me to disregard the stance. he also said that in kenpo, we keep our rear hand across our stomach to counter low kicks. I just smiled and nodded and kept my hands up. he didnt press it.

          after some stance stuff we moved onto a blocking form. i think most of us know how katas go, this was basically just moving around doing a series of blocks. I find these kind of things hard to remember, so i wont bore with the details. after that we started on the self defense form thingies.

          Now I can't speak for the rest you, but the last time I saw a fight that started by someone grabbing the collar of someones shirt then looking at them blankly was probably somewhere around primary school. I was determined to learn something useful though so I didnt make the mention. the first thing we learnt was to do an outside block against the arm to bash it away, then a front snap kick to the goolies, followed by a knife hand strike to the neck, cos the guy has leaned over from the goolie smash. these are all executed with the right side of the body. i dont know what happened to mr lefty during all of this, he just sort of hung there. to be honest, this is basically a kick to the nuts. take the other crap away and thats all it is, kicking someone in the nuts when they have grabbed your shirt. easy.

          the second one was just as ludicrous, if not moreso. this involved someone grabbing you with both hands and pulling you towards them. from here you punch them in the face with your right after grabbing one of their hands with your left and crushing the other to your chest with your forearm. you then bring your right down and smash it across their extended arms, lift your right up to an elbow strike, and then a second elbow strike for good measure.

          well, where to start. at least now I know what to do if a complete pussy or a seven year old child grabs my shirt. honestly, if you cant break away from someone grabbing your hands like this with their weak arm you need to stop fighting gorillas and get the fuck in the gym.

          after this most of the class except me and the tall guy went down the back to work on various other forms. me and tall guy must've done those two forms a million times, over and over. they didnt get any less stupid though. after a while the sensei bought out a bag, and I broke the torture by asking him if we could join the main class. bagwork I thought, fun fun. however, bagwork was short lived. we spent most of our time bashing our forearms against each others in two lines, while one person spent about a minute smacking the bag with various kicks.

          now im not a big guy- 5'10 and about 135-140 pounds. I would say that every one of these people outweighed me. and im not usually one to brag, but in a kicking contest they would be my bitches. even musclemans kicks were poor. myself and the sensei seemed about even, but he has a few years experience on me. one thing I will point out here- we did a sum total of about 5 minutes on punches, out of 2.5 hours. and about 5 minutes of kicking. this should give you some idea of the amount of self defense form stuff we did.

          after this, the rest of the class went through more of these forms. I honestly have to admire their dedication, there is no way I could remember such a huge amount of crap, especially if i was just a yellow belt. I watched for a while, then went to a corner and shadow boxed. got some weird looks but meh. fuck em. i think i was supposed to be doing the blocking kata.

          finally, it ended. no warm down, and to be honest I was dry as a bone- the hardest workout had been the skipping i did at the start, and the 40 press ups. a regular MT lessons consists of about 300 press ups all up, so i wasnt exactly phased by this. I did a bit of skipping, thanked the instructor, and went home.

          Now I might come off as a bit harsh here. the club is very new, and most of the people there probably have all up less experience than me in MA. the sensei was a nice guy, and they seemed to train the forms with a fair bit of contact. the forearm conditioning was ok as well, been a while since I did any of that, and they didnt have any gear in to spar with yet. overall I wouldnt class it as a mcdojo- they werent trying to sell me shit, or make me sign anything, and they werent trying to convince me of any deadly ninja crap. I won't be going back though.
          Mace of aggression isn't about breaking the grab its about controling the distance and making your opponent pay for conceeding both his punching hands in favor of a grab. Calling that a pussy defense is just about the dumbest thing I've heard you say and this is the first thing of yours I have read.
          The kick in Sword of destruction only happens if the distance between you and you opponent is perfect; so, no, the kick is not the point, the whole point of the tech is the chop to the kneck or the optional right cross. so there went that theory. :D
          Peace!

          Comment


            #6
            ahh, kenpo.

            Comment


              #7
              Many instructors teach the "chop" to the neck in Delayed Sword as a forearm shot. Either way it is designed to hit as you settle forward after the kick to the groin.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Re: american kenpo- the lesson

                Originally posted by Venomous
                Mace of aggression isn't about breaking the grab its about controling the distance and making your opponent pay for conceeding both his punching hands in favor of a grab. Calling that a pussy defense is just about the dumbest thing I've heard you say and this is the first thing of yours I have read.
                The kick in Sword of destruction only happens if the distance between you and you opponent is perfect; so, no, the kick is not the point, the whole point of the tech is the chop to the kneck or the optional right cross. so there went that theory. :D
                Peace!
                thats great but its hard to make someone "pay" when they can break the grab so easily. like I said though, next time someone grabs my jacket with both hands like a retard, I'll know what to do. and i just remembered that he went on about the marriage of gravity when he was talking about the chop, so I guess thats the point. again, something ill remember the next time a zombie attacks me.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Re: american kenpo- the lesson

                  Originally posted by Venomous
                  And snip....
                  Was it really necessary to quote the entire post?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It sounds like a definite Bullshido; No FC sparring (though they didn't have gear? I mean the sensei didn't? ), and mostly forms. Bullshido. It isn't going to teach you how to fight (did a similar style of Kempo for a year btw.)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Re: Re: american kenpo- the lesson

                      Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
                      thats great but its hard to make someone "pay" when they can break the grab so easily. like I said though, next time someone grabs my jacket with both hands like a retard, I'll know what to do. and i just remembered that he went on about the marriage of gravity when he was talking about the chop, so I guess thats the point. again, something ill remember the next time a zombie attacks me.
                      Who cares if they can escape a pin, it just creates a small margin for error while you punch them in the nose. The grab was to push you away or pull you into something so I don't know what zombies you are refering too. The instructor emphasized Marriage Of Gravity and used sword of Destruction as an example. MOG happens anytime you plant and strike at the same time. The point was to deal with a right punch to your right. Thats right, deflect then inflict a sword of destruction. Bend him over with the kick if you can't strike without shuffling in. End of story!
                      Obviously you want to break the grab to trade punches, but you will have to acheive a better position to do so.
                      oy!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I can see the value in forms/kata in terms of learning your own body mechanics and movement, but they need to be done proportionally to other types of training.

                        I can think of more than a few ways to break or trap a grab that I would prefer, but the basic theory in this one sounds fine - the arm coming across should encure that to creak it they have to either drop their centre of gravity or step in to angle their arms enough to pull them free. Then its knee or headbutt time.

                        A lot of untranined idiots do actually try double lapel grabs if they haren't used to hitting or being hit, or maybe have some grappling training way in the past (or think playing rugby makes them a tougharse). See it in doorwork all the time.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The only thing I would suggest is instead of automatically dismissing differences in stances and guard positions, is to give them a try or at least try to find the rational behind them.

                          You might even find situations where they might be useful.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            It is safe to say that AK is not the end dicipline in the MA world and it is Bullshido if any TMA pounds in you that a technique can only work one way. For the past few years I learned alot through trial and error and I still look forward to every class and if theres something thats missing or flawed I am taught to adjust instead of sticking with a cookie cutter technique mentally that will set me up for some hurt. And just like any other dicipline AK has its good and bad points such as it has some pretty solid stances in regards to fighting but theres certain techniques where the grab or attack is something you will not do even drunk.

                            Although the skipping does sound kinda silly.

                            I have had my ass handed to me by MT practitioners and it was not because the dicipline I am in sucked its because I sucked but I learned still to do better.

                            Although a few pointers from the MT fighters does not hurt either ;P.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hey Ikken - not sure if these are the same people, but I chanced on a flyer at the mall today for American Kenpo in Auckland.

                              Website is:
                              Here

                              The instructor has been in NZ for 4 years, guy called Dwayne McGee, who trained under Larry Tatum. Club is affiliated to LTKKA.

                              Other than the little kiddies on the website and some of the absolutely moronic marketing speak in the flyer ("Most practical and effective martial art system available today" "Most comprehensive MA system in teh world" "uses scientific disciplines not yet employed by other MAs") which is pretty normal, they seem to have a reasonable amount of cred in terms of instructor quality. It wouldn't surprise me if the Whangarei club you went to is one started by one of the first BBs this guy trained up. You should see if the instructor there wants to come to the throwdown.

                              If your background is MT you aren't going to swallow the forms etc. My background is TMA prior to KK, and I while I love kata as a movement exercise and a body mechanics drill I don't think I would be able to deal with the amount that AK seems to have. But whatever works for the individual I guess.

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