Does the internet really exist, or are we just brainwashed to think it does?

[pokeroo]

YouTube- The Internet, the truth behind the conspiracy

This piece of comedy reminds me of every conspiracy theory video I've ever seen. From the 911 attack videos, to creationists making arguments against evolution (even if that's not technically a conspiracy theory).

I won't be offended if this is moved to YMAS or deleted but it seemed like the forum to share this gem.:israel7va

[Styygens]

YouTube- The Matrix in 5 seconds

And that explains... everything.

[Matt Phillips]

YouTube- The Internet, the truth behind the conspiracy

This piece of comedy reminds me of every conspiracy theory video I've ever seen. From the 911 attack videos, to creationists ...

I know, those 911 researchers are fucking NUTS
YouTube- 3/5 Pilots for 9-11 Truth - World Trade Center Attack

[pokeroo]

I know, those 911 researchers are fucking NUTS
YouTube- 3/5 Pilots for 9-11 Truth - World Trade Center Attack

I got through about a minute before the video stalled and I started to get bored. When it comes to 911 videos, some are more nuts than others. The one you posted appears to be rather technical, and might have valid sources. But for every conspiracy video like that out there there's like 100 that are evident with minimal examination to be nuts.

Okay, the video isn't stalled anymore, and I have to say the narrator of this one is being very conservative and making claims that I don't find outlandish. I'm pretty sure that the government does have an agenda, I'm pretty sure that they are more interested in how things appear than what actually happened. Generally this sort of thing is something that happens to cover up incompetence.

Now maybe I'm just tired but I'm going to leave this 911 stuff alone for now. I've wasted hours of my life looking at these videos and trying to check facts and I'm pretty sure I'll never know enough of the facts, arguments, or physics of it to make a good argument for either side of the 911 debate.

P.S. Thank God you didn't link to a video about the melting temperature of steel.

[Matt Phillips]

When you have more mental energy, watch the whole thing. It's one of the very best things done on the subject. I agree that there are a zillion fruit loops making 9/11 vids, but there is serious work being done at the same time. I like the part where they interview the ex-captain of UA175 and he states that he couldn't duplicate the terrorist's flying in his that exact plane. Anywho, judging all 9/11 reseach by nonsnse on YT is like judging Bullshido by Sirc.

The way to tell the difference is that serious researchers will only go so far as to call for a new investigation. Conspiracies are a matter for law enforcement, not internet researchers.

I'm pretty sure that they are more interested in how things appear than what actually happened. Generally this sort of thing is something that happens to cover up incompetence.

You're 90% there already. The official report is a piece of garbage. They need to start over and do it right this time.

[pokeroo]

Okay I watched the rest. I was going to say that the captain interviews were actually impressive. I don't suppose a trained pilot could reach those speeds by nose diving then pulling up at the right time redirecting the downward vertical energy in a horizontal direction? I must admit the video you posted did take an angle I had not seen before.

Anyway, you obviously see my point, as my OP was really a bit of friendly ridicule in the direction of conspiracy theorists based on the general idiocy that dominates most of the videos out there.

[Matt Phillips]

Okay I watched the rest. I was going to say that the captain interviews were actually impressive. I don't suppose a trained pilot could reach those speeds by nose diving then pulling up at the right time redirecting the downward vertical energy in a horizontal direction? I must admit the video you posted did take an angle I had not seen before.

They make a very specific point referencing Egypt Air flight 990 which was destroyed at under 500 Knots (at 22,000 ft) in just such a dive. 510 Knots at 800 ft is way past the point of failure, and well beyond even expert ability to control a 767 and hit such a target.

Edit: FTR the simulator test being described when the vid cuts off ended in failure for all 10 veteran pilots who tried. Only the senior examiner was able to hit the towers, and only at half the speed than Hani Hanjor is aledged to have done it.

Also, the 510 Knot speed is a litetle high. People I know who have expertly analysed the speed of th plane from news reel footage estimate it in the high 400's.

Anyway, you obviously see my point, as my OP was really a bit of friendly ridicule in the direction of conspiracy theorists based on the general idiocy that dominates most of the videos out there.

Of course, I just wanted to make sure you don't throwe the baby out with the bath water ;)

[TheRuss]

I know, those 911 researchers are fucking NUTS
YouTube- 3/5 Pilots for 9-11 Truth - World Trade Center Attack

Aside from a healthy dose of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, they screwed up the EgyptAir Flight 990 comparison, probably on purpose.

However, the data indicate that the airplane impacted the ocean about 0152:30, with an average descent rate during the second dive of about 20,000 fpm.

-NTSB Aircraft Accident Brief, EgyptAir flight 990 (emphasis mine)

According to the CVR and FDR data, at 0150:08, as the airplane exceeded its maximum operating airspeed (0.86 Mach), a master warning alarm began to sound. (The warning continued until the FDR and CVR stopped recording at 0150:36.64 and 0150:38.47, respectively.)

AA 11 Impact Speed (mph): 443 +/- 30 mph

NIST NCSTAR 1-2: Baseline Structural Performance and Aircraft Impact Damage Analysis of the World Trade Center Towers (Chapter 7, p. 166)

At about 8:43:30 and 10,000 feet, the airplane made another left turn to the South-Southwest, its final heading for the World Trade Center (Point H). The airplane impacted the North tower at approximately 8:46:40 (point I).

-NTSB Flight Path Study - American Airlines Flight 11 (PDF)

EgyptAir 990: > Mach 0.86, >20k fpm descent
AA 11: ~Mach 0.58, ~3000 fpm descent

The "Equivalent Airspeed" thing is a red herring because of the timing of EgyptAir 990 losing its left engine:

It is apparent that the left engine and some small pieces of wreckage separated from the airplane at some point before water impact because they were located in the western debris field about 1,200 feet from the eastern debris field. Although no radar or FDR data indicated exactly when (at what altitude) the separation occurred, on the basis of aerodynamic evidence and the proximity of the two debris fields, it is apparent that the airplane remained intact until sometime during its final descent.

Same NTSB report (emphasis mine)


Any questions?

[pokeroo]

Yep, I don't have the dedication to find out where but every time I hear a new 911 truth argument that appears unique and well thought out it turns out that its because the facts were messed with. How am I supposed to keep taking these people seriously?

[Matt Phillips]

Yep, I don't have the dedication to find out where but every time I hear a new 911 truth argument that appears unique and well thought out it turns out that its because the facts were messed with. How am I supposed to keep taking these people seriously?

Hold on. Just because someone started a debate is no reason to leap to a conclusion. That's what conspiracy theorists do.

Do you actually understand his point? I'm not sure I do yet.

[pokeroo]

Hold on. Just because someone started a debate is no reason to leap to a conclusion. That's what conspiracy theorists do.

Do you actually understand his point? I'm not sure I do yet.

It can be confusing sometimes to understand the russ' points. He writes assuming a certain amount of scholarship. What get from his points are that:

The Egypt air flight descended rapidly, and exceeded its max operating speed. I'm guessing the CVR is some sort of on board speed recording devices which failed making accurate record of its speed or depth impossible.

He also pointed out that the rate of decent was so different that a comparison based on airspeed alone is irrelevant. Also the Egypt Air plane did not just spontaneously combust the moment it hit those speeds, implying the 911 planes wouldn't have either.

He didn't touch the parking garage arguments though, but I assume that the same comparison could be made for touching down on a runway with the accuracy pilots do everyday.

As for leaping to a conclusion, that's not what I did. I said that most claims put forward by 911 truthers that I've researched seem to turn out to be based on misinformation. I don't have the resources as far as leisure time and tolerance for the subject to reach a conclusion, but for my limited amount of time and energy I find the 911 truth campaign generally discredited.

[Matt Phillips]

Aside from a healthy dose of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy,

Please spell out this part of your argument at your leisure.

they screwed up the EgyptAir Flight 990 comparison,

OK, we'll address this first.

probably on purpose.

Speculation. How would you go about establishing this? Cynical too.

Any questions?

Yes. I am confused as to the point you are making.

You will note that you are basing your argument on speeds for given for AA11 where the central argument of the presentation you are criticizing revolves around over-tolerance speeds reported for UAL175. I know strawman is not your style so I would encourage you to go back to the NTSB and NIST reports and see if you can make the same argument for UA175 based on the data reported there.

The NTSB has this to say about UAL175

For much of its final descent, UAL175 maintained rate of between 4000 and 8000 feet per minute. During the descent from 12,000 feet to 6000 feet, the aircraft groundspeed remained between 500 - 520 knots. As the aircraft made its final descent to 1000 feet, it accelerated and impacted World Trade Center tower #2 at approximately 510 knots ground speed.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/Rad...A11,_UA175.pdf

The "Equivalent Airspeed" thing is a red herring because of the timing of EgyptAir 990 losing its left engine:

I don't want to say anything until I ask for clarification. Can you make this part of your argument more explicit?

Thanks!

[Matt Phillips]

It can be confusing sometimes to understand the russ' points. He writes assuming a certain amount of scholarship.

Russ know he can assume as much scholarly maturity as he wishes when he's debating me.

What get from his points are that:

The Egypt air flight descended rapidly, and exceeded its max operating speed. I'm guessing the CVR is some sort of on board speed recording devices which failed making accurate record of its speed or depth impossible.

CVR stands for Cockpit Voice Recorder. A cockpit data recorder (CDR) records the kind of data you are talking about. The CDR will not stop recording unless all of its sensors stop reporting. That is usually taken as an indication of total structural failure.

He also pointed out that the rate of decent was so different that a comparison based on airspeed alone is irrelevant.

Did he? I must have missed something.

Also the Egypt Air plane did not just spontaneously combust the moment it hit those speeds, implying the 911 planes wouldn't have either.

I'm giving you a pass on the "spontaneously combust" comment. The PF911T presentation makes the point several times that even if a plane could hold together at that speed, that its controlability rapidly goes to nil as the design limitation is approached.

He didn't touch the parking garage arguments though, but I assume that the same comparison could be made for touching down on a runway with the accuracy pilots do everyday.

I encourage you to watch the rest of the presentation. I suspect the part I am referencing is not in the short segment you watched.

As for leaping to a conclusion, that's not what I did. I said that most claims put forward by 911 truthers that I've researched seem to turn out to be based on misinformation. I don't have the resources as far as leisure time and tolerance for the subject to reach a conclusion, but for my limited amount of time and energy I find the 911 truth campaign generally discredited.

I'll make it easy for you. I will not bring any information on the subject to this forum unless it is worth your attention. It is helpful to distinguish between folks doing a critical review of the government analyses, and folks trying to conduct some sort of criminal investigation of W, Cheney, and the martians.

[Matt Phillips]

Edit: I said "Cockpit Data Recorder" above. I should have said "Flight Data Recorder (FDR)

[pokeroo]

Sorry do derail the 911 stuff but I found some other videos much like my OP.
YouTube- Bill Gates EXPOSED! Wants Major Depopulation Through Vaccines!
Apparently bill Gates wants to use vaccines to sterilize most of the planet.

YouTube- Bill Gates, " Vaccinate to Depopulate": His Logic Explained
This girl gets it. He wants to force everyone to have abortions because that's the only thing that anyone can possibly mean when they talk about reproductive rights or health. Forget about contraception. Never heard of it. Oh and did you know the relationship between a decline in child mortality and decline in childbirth is a linear 1:1 relationship? Neither did I!