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Who Says There Is No MA Angle On 9/11?

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    #31
    Right, I understand what you are saying now. There is no freefall in those brick breaking demo's. The break propagates as a shock wave not in the same manner as the initial pancake collapse of the wtc 1 & 2.
    To be clearer I think, ( I don't have time at the mo. to study it but I'll try to have a more in depth look), that in the videos you show on breaking that the break is more akin to a wave propagated break in a material. Waves can travel through objects faster than gravitational acceleration and their speed is governed by the materials structure, rather than by gravity.
    The microcosm only mirrors the macrocosm in this case - it doesn't replicate it.
    By the way 'pancake' collapses obey the Laws of Gravity too, they can't opt out, the difference in these two instances being, - the top sections of the towers were gravitationally pulled onto the lower parts of the towers as their supporting structures failed. In the blocks/bricks case the structural integrity is shattered by a downward force which propagates through the structure until its integrity is weakened enough to be overcome by gravity.
    Last edited by ReverendClog; 3/05/2010 6:50pm, . Reason: idiocy.

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      #32
      I should put more thoughts into this before I post but this thread has 31 posts already. I am not gonna detail read all.

      YouTube- 911 And The Laws Of Physics

      I looked at some clips this too. I think the puff of clouds they are reffering to can be explained by air that escapes from the building through the top. Hard to say something useful without some good information. I also noticed something that looked like a small fire explosion at 0.36 which could also be caused by air pressure that pushes flames out of the window.

      YouTube- Something "Strange" with the South Tower impact

      about this clip. A plane loaded with alot of petrol fuel flies at high speed into the tower. the explosion will ofc move forward. Make a molotove coctail and throw it at a rock and you will see that the fire ball travels forward. It will also travel backwards if it hits something. like the other side of the tower. also I suspect that these towers where somewhat air tight. so again --> air pressure=more boom

      about the acceleration of the falling towers. I am not sure if it accelerate from looking at the clips. I kind of get the impression that that there was some acceleration there but that it reached a max speed. Also if there was acceleration there it could be explained in alot of ways. Air pressure etc is one of them.

      I see your parallel between the brick breaking and the fall of the towers. on the other side it is kind of hard to compare these two systems since there is alot more going on in the tower system.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by ReverendClog View Post
        Right, I understand what you are saying now. There is no freefall in those brick breaking demo's. The break propagates as a shock wave not in the same manner as the initial pancake collapse of the wtc 1 & 2.
        To be clearer I think, ( I don't have time at the mo. to study it but I'll try to have a more in depth look), that in the videos you show on breaking that the break is more akin to a wave propagated break in a material. Waves can travel through objects faster than gravitational acceleration and their speed is governed by the materials structure, rather than by gravity.
        I appreciate you taking the time to discuss the actual point of the thread.
        To your point: If the object being broken were a single (very tall) brick, then I would see your point about a single shockwave. But this is not the case, as the individual bricks are seperated by spacers, and must actually move/fall across those gaps before their momentum can be transferred to the next brick. It is like a wave, but it is actually a chain of individual events with free fall in between.
        Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


        KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

        In De Janerio, in blackest night,
        Luta Livre flees the fight,
        Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
        Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

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          #34
          Originally posted by Uglybugly View Post
          I also noticed something that looked like a small fire explosion at 0.36 which could also be caused by air pressure that pushes flames out of the window.
          This is possible, but it would tend to sap a lot of energy out of the system, and slow things down considerably.

          about the acceleration of the falling towers. I am not sure if it accelerate from looking at the clips. I kind of get the impression that that there was some acceleration there but that it reached a max speed.
          I'm trying to tract down an accurate measurment of this.

          Also if there was acceleration there it could be explained in alot of ways. Air pressure etc is one of them.
          I have no idea how that would work. Please explain.

          I see your parallel between the brick breaking and the fall of the towers. on the other side it is kind of hard to compare these two systems since there is alot more going on in the tower system.
          Very often simple models can tell you a lot. We'll have to see.
          Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


          KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

          In De Janerio, in blackest night,
          Luta Livre flees the fight,
          Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
          Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

          Comment


            #35
            No, but I understand how it looks. Initially, when I trained as an engineer, I didn't understand how waves propagate.
            It is simplistically like this.
            Materials separated by small volumes of air, and in particular even:5nuclear: when those materials have no 'walls' - something to retain that air and ramp up air pressure when under force - when struck by a force which causes a catastrophic rupture transmit that rupture through the intervening space rapidly, (far faster than gravitational acceleration), the force carrier can be air, the spacers are meaningless in terms of propagation.
            You can see how well air transmits a shockwave - propagation of force - if you look at a large explosion and watch the shock travel in a wave formation through the air.
            I know it seems counter intuitive at times, but I assure you this is correct.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by ReverendClog View Post
              No, but I understand how it looks. Initially, when I trained as an engineer, I didn't understand how waves propagate.
              It is simplistically like this.
              Materials separated by small volumes of air, and in particular even:5nuclear: when those materials have no 'walls' - something to retain that air and ramp up air pressure when under force - when struck by a force which causes a catastrophic rupture transmit that rupture through the intervening space rapidly, (far faster than gravitational acceleration), the force carrier can be air, the spacers are meaningless in terms of propagation.
              You can see how well air transmits a shockwave - propagation of force - if you look at a large explosion and watch the shock travel in a wave formation through the air.
              I know it seems counter intuitive at times, but I assure you this is correct.
              In the case of the unconstrained space surrounding the bricks, it is certain that the force is not being transmitted by an increase in air pressure. Especially clear in the first video I posted.

              when struck by a force which causes a catastrophic rupture transmit that rupture through the intervening space rapidly, (far faster than gravitational acceleration), the force carrier can be air, the spacers are meaningless in terms of propagation.
              If you care to make measurements from the videos I posted, I believe you will find that the breakage waves propagate at a rate that is both constant, and significantly slower to reach the ground than would be a object in free fall.

              For the first video, I estimate 2.2 m/s.

              I believe you will also find that the time necessary to traverse the inter layer gap does indeed affect the rate of collapse, and that larger spacers will create a slower collapse.
              Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


              KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

              In De Janerio, in blackest night,
              Luta Livre flees the fight,
              Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
              Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

              Comment


                #37
                WW,
                [QUOTE]In the case of the unconstrained space surrounding the bricks, it is certain that the force is not being transmitted by an increase in air pressure. Especially clear in the first video I posted./QUOTE].

                Okay, what is transmitting the force then?.

                [QUOTE]If you care to make measurements from the videos I posted, I believe you will find that the breakage waves propagate at a rate that is both constant, and significantly slower to reach the ground than would be a object in free fall. /QUOTE].

                Accurate scientific measurements cannot be made from videos. This whole thread is a shambles because of that. I have tried to tell you what is true.
                You CANNOT calculate the propagation of breakage waves from uncalibratable video footage, this is pure Bullshido.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by ReverendClog View Post
                  WW,
                  Okay, what is transmitting the force then?.
                  Rapidly moving sections of brick. By your argument, there would be no breakage beyond the first brick if this were done in a vacuum.

                  Accurate scientific measurements cannot be made from videos.
                  No, but approximate ones can be made. Certainly one can tell the difference between an accelerating object, and one moving at constant velocity. Which is the point.

                  This whole thread is a shambles because of that.
                  Don't you think you're over reacting.

                  I have tried to tell you what is true.
                  And I'm listening. If you think it's rude that I have responses, I can't help you.

                  You CANNOT calculate the propagation of breakage waves from uncalibratable video footage,
                  Here's a whole thread on the subject in which every poster (except me) is an engineer: Velocity Calculations from Discrete Position Data (The discussion is about measuring pixel data in Missing Jolts found ???; film at 11 )

                  this is pure Bullshido.

                  I don't think that word means what you think it does.
                  Last edited by Matt Phillips; 3/05/2010 11:51pm, .
                  Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                  KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                  In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                  Luta Livre flees the fight,
                  Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                  Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                    (Relatively) Upwards is not a problem, but accelerating downwards at greater than 9.81 m/s/s is impossible in an unassisted fall.
                    The immense amount of energy relaesed during the structures faliure may well provide such assisstence as well as the additional energy input from the plane.

                    Crack propagassion and shock waves can easily reach subsonic speeds or higher in the case of shock waves (maybe you dont need an advanced degree but to understand this but you might find reading up on partial differential equations would help explain). In reaching these speeds the surrounding parts of structure will undergo phenomenally rapid accelerations, hence the presence of shock waves in the surrounding air.


                    Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                    Go fuck yourself.
                    :shock:
                    Last edited by Da Pope; 3/06/2010 11:04am, .

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Da Pope View Post
                      The immense amount of energy relaesed during the structures faliure may well provide such assisstence as well as the additional energy input from the plane.
                      I don't know what to make of this. The only energy in the system is the potential energy of the materials at elevation. Utilizing all of it for the purpose of accelerating downwards will produce an acceleration of 9.81 m/s/s. The idea that any part of the collapse front could go faster than that is incoherent.

                      The planes hit about an hour before the collapses. Their energy was long since spent when the towers fell.

                      Crack propagassion and shock waves can easily reach subsonic speeds or higher in the case of shock waves (maybe you dont need an advanced degree but to understand this but you find reading up on partial differential equations would help explain). In reaching these speeds the surrounding parts of structure will undergo phenomenally rapid accelerations, hence the presence of shock waves in the surrounding air.
                      I have my own PDE textbook and won't be needing yours, thanks ;)

                      The thing you're missing about these types of systems is that they are discrete, and that they have 2 phases, one involving wave progression, and one involving shock transmission by traveling debris. They are known to converge on a maximum speed, and to display arrest phenomena. Its not a simple shock wave problem.



                      :shock:[/quote]
                      Last edited by Matt Phillips; 3/06/2010 11:15am, .
                      Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                      KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                      In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                      Luta Livre flees the fight,
                      Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                      Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                        Here's a whole thread on the subject in which every poster (except me) is an engineer: Velocity Calculations from Discrete Position Data (The discussion is about measuring pixel data in Missing Jolts found ???; film at 11 )
                        .

                        I didnt read through all of it but what the thread appears to be about is postion tacking of certain points to obtain the velocity of a given point or points.

                        This is not the same as calculating or capturing crack or shock wave propagation. There is no way a video camera is going to have a frame rate anywhere near the needed time resolution.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                          The planes hit about an hour before the collapses. Their energy was long since spent when the towers fell.
                          spent where?


                          Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                          The thing you're missing about these types of systems is that they are discrete, and that they have 2 phases, one involving wave progression, and one involving shock transmission by traveling debris. They are known to converge on a maximum speed, and to display arrest phenomena. Its not a simple shock wave problem.
                          Could you elborate please?

                          When you say disctrete system do you mean it is not governed by continuum mechanical theory?

                          Isnt it a stress wave phenomena? One with a high degree of discontinuities (shock waves)?

                          What kind of maximum speeds are you talking about?

                          Just for clarity I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I would like to know what your talking about.

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                            #43
                            Why do you keep harping on about things being in a vacuum?. It isn't relevant.
                            None of the phenomena under discussion occurred in vacuum.

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                              #44
                              It is his quirk ignore it and deal with the major points.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                I'm about to step out so I'll just address one quick point: I am not "harping on" about things being in a vacuum. When "air pressure" comes up in a thread about terminal velocity, I'd think the need to distinguish between systems in atmosphere and systems not would be obvious.
                                Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                                KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                                In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                                Luta Livre flees the fight,
                                Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                                Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                                Comment

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