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  • Jenfucius
    replied
    everyone knows that snake style can only defeat the eagle's claw if it is combined with cat claw!!!

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  • Omar
    replied
    Well, a tiger claw to the throat is someting you can do plenty 'live'. If pull them off with double tiger or more often with back tiger at full speed with a parnter who's hitting plenty hard. No special padding. You just don't squeez down. It's one reason why it's so important to go in to training without a chip on your shoulder and to have to be really honest withyourself about what's going on in th exchanges. If you don't squeeze down, your partner may not even know that he/she was just 'killed'. I've trained with people who realized what I just did and those who didn't realize theiy'd been 'hit' let alone 'killed'. But a lot of the time, even at speed, you can grab the trachea and just give it a gentle squeeze. I had one guy early on who grabbed me by the throat and I didn't figure out what was happening untill the whole room could hear the wheezing I was making from breathing though a squeezed throat. Not every throat is a strike. I almost hate to point it out online since I meet in person seems to have figured it out but grabbing the throat to choke you don't grab a persons neck, you grab the trachea. Not all throat strikes are 'strikes'. It's one of the things I notice from my Hung Gar practice. Most people don't proetect their throat if you cup up at it a bit slower. It's like it doesn't read as threatening or something.

    Then there's the fact that one of the other reasons to pull your hand back into a tiger claw is the way it sends power out to the wrist for striking and the forearm for blocking. The spiralling entry path has a great unbalancing effect if you use double tiger to counter a standard 1-2 from a boxer type. I used it in my MT class once on a guy 3 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier and turned him right around backwards.

    There's traits and characteristics your supposed to learn from the various 'styles' within Hung Gar.

    Tiger - aggression, shoulder strikes, grabbing, palm strikes, powerfull stances.

    Leopard - speed, combinatoins, level changes

    Snake - discussed at length already

    Crane - long arm techniques, fighting from the outside, hooking and blocks that pull someone off balance, agility

    Dragon - Internal power, qi-gong, 'iron shirt'

    But they don't count really as 'styles' in their own right although most individual moves could be categorized among them and the sort of are like styles because you typically find you self predominately useing the techniques of one or two of them in particular. It's your 'style' with that particular opponent. With people my own size I usually end up drawing heavily from crane style. I have long arms for my height and can use my reach well striking from just outside their range. If someone is a lot taller than me I'll go the other way and make myself very very short and rely more on tiger to control those annoying arms and muscle in, crowding them and using my shoulder or side to bump them when I can. From snake I take more mental attributes. Dragon should infuse everything. Leapord come up occasionally but I don't use it much. It has given me the ability to read choi li fut players better though. Most of that they do looks like leapord to me.

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  • Ronin
    replied
    It seems to me that most "animal" styles are very similar to other styles, with the exception of the distinctive hand formation representitive of their name sake ( tiger claw for the tiger style, snake fist for the snake style, etc.), am I right on that? ( my only experience with "kung fu" is Hung Gar for 2 years).

    A note on striking the eyes and throat: a lot has been said about those areas in the past, with the debating being about the effectivness of a strike that you can't do in a "live" training method.
    Now I have seen finger strikes done in practise ( goggles were worn) and throat shots too ( neck guard was worn) and I have this to add: IF you practise those strikes as much as a boxer practises his cross or hook, so have the same amount of probabilty of getting a hit than he does.
    Its really about practising what you preach.

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  • Omar
    replied
    FuckenA man! This thread turned out great. I wish I'd jumped on earlier but like KTK mentioned, anytime someone get's on about a specific animal style I tend to sort of glaze over. It's really nice to see somebody 'get it' with the animal thing.

    I think of the various animals as sort of a way of both categorizing techniques and as examples of certain energetic or psychological aspects of fighting. My Sifu's website says:

    "The Snake trains the fingers and is for striking the vital points on an opponent's body. It is utilized in the training and manipulation of Chi (Vital Energy). It teaches pinpoint hitting of vital areas. The Practitioner focuses his Chi all the way up to his fingertips in order to deliver and generate power correctly."

    Snakes are a great role model for a certain kind of attention. They have the most intense pre-strike stare. The subtle coiling they do to prepare for a strike. Not that's a usefull thing to learn. Instead of 'cocking' your fist to strike, you can coil up your body behind the striking limb. The lead arm doesn't move. You collect yourself and find the 'wind-up' inside yourself. No wonder snakes are associated with chan-si jin.

    'What do you think is the benefit of such language besides impressing people by saying that you know drunken tiger mantis?'


    The benifit is that it sounds rad dude!!! In the original, of course, it doesn't come off corny and weird. It's like ebonics for martial artists. Chinese is a kick-ass language. Straight English doesn't come close for colorfull expressions and weird-ass slang. . . unless you include 'street English'. I mean, how the fuck would you translate, "It looked like he was going to get knocked out but then he got his mojo workin' and busted a move out of left field that look like a mac daddy showin his ho' that daddy's hooooome for dinna." . . .er. . .whatever. Sometimes I think a lot of the flowery metaphores are just from some badass who could really talk, going on about his moves.

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  • Mr. Mantis
    replied
    Originally posted by kuntaokid
    perhaps you are referencing poisonous snake method in which rapid strikes are used to attack vitals, with a lot of quick footwork?

    That I am.

    Thank you for answering my questions.

    Leave a comment:


  • IndoChinese
    replied
    Kuntao,

    Couple of questions.

    1. What makes these animals classics?

    uhmm...that was more a reference to the commonly known 'five animals kungfu' method. Animals are used extensively to label techniques.

    2. Also, I have some snake background, I never considered it a grappling art, though I am familiar with the trap blocks. Is this what you mean?

    I should qualify my response by saying that I do KuntaoSilat, it is chinese AND indonesian. as well, there are multiple interpretations of snake methodology. yes, trap motions are used. but, it is a soft, wrapping style used to bind the entire body. it is constrictor methodology.

    perhaps you are referencing poisonous snake method in which rapid strikes are used to attack vitals, with a lot of quick footwork?

    Peace.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jenfucius
    replied
    Originally posted by kuntaokid

    there is a nearby instructor ( term applied loosely) who is a classic new age hippie chi head taichi dancer, who claims to teach Taichi, Praying Mantis, Bagua, and some other crap too i think.

    he is one of many.

    what can i do?
    fucking chi heads, man. you should have a dark mage put a foul curse on them!

    Leave a comment:


  • IndoChinese
    replied
    'Thanks for breaking that down Kuntao. Now it doesnt seem so ludicrous. Theyre still crny as hell though.'

    Os,

    yea, it is a pain in the ass. and sometimes seems a little silly I must admit. It took me a LONG time to 'get it'. conceptual imagery originally in chinese, 'translated' into english. and i am sure most books i read were translations of translations, translated into english. that is a long way to pass a message.


    'What do you think is the benefit of such language besides impressing people by saying that you know drunken tiger mantis?'

    when i hear someone say they know an animal style, i am immediately suspicious. such claims are usually garbage.

    however, the theory is very sound. it is based on analogies. To teach, you can say that to perform some technique is 'like' some other activity. Given that most martial arts motions can be related to some common everyday activity, this can be a very useful way to instruct. It helps people to get the 'feeling' for the motion, whereas long, technical instructions usually are of little help. ma is about sensitivity, and intuitive reflex. Images are a much better way to transmit the 'intention' for any given action. with a good image to start with, the student to get to the 'real' thing much more quickly.

    'Also, how do you think that the CMA community can put a stop to idiots cncerned more with monkey emulation than with the principles that the metaphor stand for.'

    I wish I knew. You and I both the real answer. but it cant happen that way anymore. there is a nearby instructor ( term applied loosely) who is a classic new age hippie chi head taichi dancer, who claims to teach Taichi, Praying Mantis, Bagua, and some other crap too i think.

    he is one of many.

    what can i do?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Mantis
    replied
    Originally posted by kuntaokid
    'Has it ever been taught as a style unto itself ?'

    I couldnt really tell you, ronin. I learned it as part of an animal set. It is not considered complete by any means.

    others include tiger, monkey, crane, dragon, and ape.

    the 'classics'.
    Kuntao,

    Couple of questions.

    1. What makes these animals classics?

    2. Also, I have some snake background, I never considered it a grappling art, though I am familiar with the trap blocks. Is this what you mean?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jenfucius
    replied
    is snake style just one style? i know a lot of CMA have snake forms, but i don't know much about it.

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  • wushupie
    replied
    sweet

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  • Nihilanthic
    replied
    I think we just bridged a huge gap between MMA and the KF guys. Seriously.

    BTW - Sprawl and Brawl is like Chuck Liddel. GREAT standup, can defend takedowns and get up real easy.

    Leave a comment:


  • IndoChinese
    replied
    'What would you attribe to which?


    Like,

    GnP- monkey or ape

    sprawl and brawl-not sure what you mean, sprawl as shoot defense, then counterstrike? in that case, monkey or ape

    buttscoot- monkey

    slammer-i am assuming you mean an upright thrower. snake or tiger

    long range kicker- crane

    clincher- again snake and tiger



    Peace.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nihilanthic
    replied
    Okay...

    Well, here... what would a GnP guy be? What would a European MT guy be? Sakuraba's style? W. Silvas?

    Oh, and what is BJJ most like?

    Leave a comment:


  • IndoChinese
    replied
    'I found all the animal generalizations *which seem more like idealized polar extremes of a scale to how you fight than a real style* are present in all MAs, and your individual style is which animal you'd most relate to.'

    that's a pretty apt description, Nihilanthic.

    the animals can 'balance' each other by combining.

    'That being said, Snake seems like the cautious pokey type, right?'

    actually, that is monkey.

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