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    Flim Flam

    http://www.ross.ru/media/fragment.ramhttp://AmerROSS.com/bulletin.

    Fraternal,

    Scott Sonnon

    AmerROSS.com

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: sundevil
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:31 AM

    Just a quick comment, Russia was an expanding empire before 1917. Maybe not for 2/3 of its history, but I was just responding to your post. I don't claim to be a Russian history scholar, but I have read Peter the Great and quite a few other history books that deal with Russian history directly or indirectly.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: SSonnon
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:41 AM

    Sundevil, my friend...

    Imperial Russia was 'imperialistic' just like all nations of civilization. I was only commenting on your reference of the Soviet Union. The comment, by Nikolay Travkin, was that history does detail that Russia for 2/3 of Her history defended Herself against enemies - that is all. I agree that ALL national sovereignty participated in imperialistic expansion. That is the yoke that civilization has placed upon the natural world.

    However, as we both agree this is not a thread regarding Russia's political/national history.

    Fraternal,

    Scott Sonnon

    AmerROSS.com

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: lkfmdc
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:16 PM

    More to chew on;

    In the 1950's, Chang Tung Sheng, grandmaster of the Pao Ting Chinese wrestling system, national free sparring champion of China and undefeated in all challenges (and would remain so the rest of his life!) gave an interview in a Chinese news paper. He said that for years, he had heard people say that wrestling was not effective because to get that close, you could be subject to the fabled death touch of dim mak!

    Chang found the comment amusing because he said that in all his years of fighting, it had never happened. It had never happened even when fighting so called experts at Dim Mak. In a nut shell, Chang said two more things. First, that if he could get close to you, he could hurt you! (It was the truth, pure and simple and if you've ever seen tapes of the 70 year old Chang tossing people you'd understand completely). Second, he said the whole Dim Mak thing was created by NON FIGHTERS to avoid fighting, keep their students and take money from other non fighters.

    Chang then issued a very public challenge with money involved for anyone to Dim mak him. For another 30 plus years (the rest of his life) it never happened.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Tony Bananas
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:55 PM

    great stuff!

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: MTripp
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 01:49 PM

    "My interpretation of the 'Psychic Energy' video is that people act out of reflex and fear, and this can be manipulated. The first thing they state in that video is that Psychic Energy is defined as making people move with "little or no contact". That's their definition. I reviewed my copy last night and there is no 3 foot punching either. Guess this is not the same as the "Secret Russian Psychic Techniques" tape. "

    then

    " From your reply (I will still read the article tommorow), I will assume that he never actually says that he can punch someone from 3 feet away. Did you look at the pictures and arrive at that interpretation by yourself? Did COMBAT journalists take the pictures, and put that spin on it, or did he? Is there no other possible interpretation of intended message? I will confess that I have found COMBAT to be sensationalistic (I also confess to reading only 2 issues - hard to find up here - Vlad has copies of the article because he keeps copies of all his interviews), and short on technical info. None of his students that I know are under the impression that he is a psychic, (in fact I will shortly start a thread on his forum asking who thinks he is psychic) and as I mentioned before, if someone is tense and resisting he has stated in class that "of course" he will have to touch them (on the psychic . I REALLY want to see where he claims he can punch soemone from 3 feet away."

    OK; when you speak to Vlad ask him about the tape called called "tropa" which is supposed to be "psychic path". It is his 'teacher' in russia who does 2 hours of demonstrations on a "non-martial" audience (with a few "martial" demonstrations as well) where he will stand away at maybe 5 yards and move his hand as if throwing the "invisible fireball" and a crowd of perhaps 8-10 'volunteers' will fall over.

    We can keep doing this but the bottom line is that words have meaning. Clearly the term "psychic" has been chosen for a reason; and demonstrations are there to "prove" his powers.

    Now, stay on point. WHEN can I expect Vlad will take the Randi challenge on his video claims?

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Sothy
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 02:23 PM

    okay, went to Mental Edge, all caught up (I think)...

    "When you are in a national martial art publication attempting to "sell" the idea of knocking people down without touching them; then I submit to you sir you have "dissed" yourself."---LOL :-)

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: lkfmdc
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 02:57 PM

    Heck, while we are on the subjetc;

    >> flashy TKD/Karate/Kung Fu techniques, such as flying side kicks came from the need to dismount opponents from horseback <<

    I have to admit, I have a unique advantage when someone brings up these stories. My grandmother raised horses and I learned to ride almost as soon as I learned to walk. If you think you can dismount a person, especially in a saddle, with a jumping kick, you need to go to a horse farm and try it! Really, it's so silly I am amazed people even claim it anymore.

    Don't people realize that in ARMED combat, with lances and spears and HOOKS, it was still hard to dismount a charging attacker!

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: poobear
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 05:38 PM

    Whoa. You got my attention with that one.

    This 'tropa' video is a totally new piece of info for me. I checked his site, and after much digging, all I could find was an unanswered question from a guy named 'p' (dated April 13th) as to when it's being released. It is NOT advertised, and I have never heard of it before.

    IF THIS VIDEO EXISTS AND HAS WHAT YOU SAY IT DOES, I.E. MIKHAIL RYABKO BLASTING PEOPLE OVER AT 15 FEET... to me that's pretty damining evidence. That's definitely guilding the lilly. No question. My instructor Sergei sees Vlad on Wednesday afternoons, and I won't see Sergei until the following night, which means that I can't get the 'tropa' video (assuming it's available for public consumption) until next week. But IF IT'S OUT THERE, that alone will convince me that something is not right. I mean, forget slight of hand or psychological manipulation. I can deal with that, those are just tools, confusion to the enemy. This alleged video smacks of cultism. I don't understand why someone would even tape themselves doing that - it would only be good for blackmail.

    The problem is I honestly have not seen anything like that, and that's what I liked about my experience thus far. But now you're giving me cognitive dissonance - what you see is not what I'm getting. It's like we live in two different worlds. As soon as this 'tropa' jive enters my training, it'll be time to move on... I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks - I think.

    As for the randi challenge, could you e-mail me a copy of the original at [email protected]. I won't see Vlad until May 14th, but with the e-mail, I might be able to use certain channels...

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: poobear
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 05:42 PM

    Actually, I'll try contacting Randi myself...

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: poobear
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 06:05 PM

    [email protected], right?

    Subject: what is going on?
    From: djb
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 07:46 PM

    Can someone summarize who/what is being discussed?

    I search on yahoo for MIKHAIL RYABKO and all I get is one web site in Cyrillic; not very informative to me.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: poobear
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 08:13 PM

    Mr Tripp, Please confirm that the following e-mail has been received (you and this randi person are buds, right?)...

    Subject: Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev

    Sirs,

    This is a 4 part question really, but first the preamble:

    I currently am learning a fighting art from Russia. The organization is apparently headed up by the men whose names are in the subject field. Lately I have heard mention of some pretty outlandish claims, which I can not explain as simple trickery (trickery in combat is a good thing, and I have no problem with it).

    My first question : have you invited Vladimir Vasiliev to take your test?

    My second question : have you received a reply if the first answer is yes?

    My third : Do you have in your posession a copy of a tape entitled 'tropa', in which Ryabko purports to knock people over from 15 feet by some kind of Psychic fireball?

    My fourth : If you have this video, where can I find a copy?

    I realize you are busy people, but if you could only answer 2 questions, 3 and 4 are probably the most important to me.

    Thank you

    John Elliott

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: poobear
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 08:19 PM

    I have managed to contact my instructor, he says he has heard of, but never seen, the tropa tape (I didn't tell him what I thought was on it). Apparently Vlad doesn't have it in his possession.

    Searched for tropa on the web, of course. Only thing I got was a roman board game.

    Mr Sonnon, is this tape commercially available in Russia?

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: SSonnon
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 10:58 PM

    John,

    Honestly, I'd rather not be involved in your process of debunking your teacher, John. That is your business.

    I represent the R.O.S.S. Training System - that is my vocation and passion, privilege and responsibility.

    I assume you are speaking about the tape that V. Vasiliev distributed: the tape where Mikhail Ryabko (presumably) casts a spell over an attacker forcing him to be bounced indefinitely like a basketball (on a basketball court) unable to escape the power of his psychic energy. If this is the tape, entitled "Tropa," where V. Vasiliev was participating in the psychic training with his teacher, then I wonder why he does not have any more copies to distribute? Although V. Vasiliev sent a copy to one of my students, I don't think he'll part with it (for him, the comedic value is too great.)

    If it is commercially available in Russia, I do not know about it. Perhaps you can try Kamkin bookstore online.

    Fraternal,

    Scott Sonnon,

    AmerROSS.com

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Smoke
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:47 PM

    Hi, long thread here. I've seen psychic MA footage from Indonesian and VV's footage ala a Systema documentary. I have the RMA footage somewhere and did a review of it somewhere on the net. ( I review every tape I get.) I don't have the hurling people back stuff.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: lkfmdc
    Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:54 PM

    There is a Chinese equivalent to this stuff, a man in CA who claims he can move you about without touching you. A very large number of people have asked him to do it to them, but he claims he can not do it to them since it will kill them. Only his students, whom are so-called specially trained can he move around without killing them.

    This by itself should have brought up a red light in someone's mind. But, let me add more. This person used to have a school in CA that taught a very mainstream system, but he talked trash about a lot of other instructors. As he is Chinese, and spoke badly of other Chinese instructors, these instructors felt he should back up things the old fashioned way.

    Long story short, this person started teaching this so-called magic system after getting out of the hospitol.

    No lie :)

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: MTripp
    Date: 26-Apr-00 | 06:42 AM

    Let's ALL read a quote shall we?

    "Another example is in Vladimir's teacher Mikhail. He would just slowly touch me with his finger tips and hands and there was so much force in it that it was sending me reeling backwards and the deep heavy force went right through me. I felt it in my spine and like I said it looked like he was just reaching out and slowly touching me lightly. There was no technique or body mechanics applied here. To say that Russian masters do not have the internal power in their fighting art means that you haven't experienced the art from any of the senior teachers or masters of the System."

    Now, does that sound like spin? Does is sound like "motor reaction" to you?

    Oh, you'd like to know who made the quote?

    Well, he runs a Vlad affiliated school in Detroit, and was the individual that claimed Tony Blauer plagiarized Vlad.

    Now to Randi. www.randi.orgwww.quackwatch.com... these clowns that preach stuff like cranio-sacral and such often damage more than just people's pocket books

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Crito
    Date: 28-Apr-00 | 12:08 AM

    Jimmo,

    I don't think that MTripp or Randi are trying to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of god (since it would be impossible to do so). IMHO the existence of god can never be "proven" or "disproven" (not that it matters).

    As for the 'Challege': Randi simply provides a controlled environment in which the validity of the claims of individuals professing psyhic ability are given the opportunity to take their $1000000.

    It surprises me as to the number of people that hate debunkers such as Randi. I also find it amusing that no one as yet been able to prove their psychic ability even though many claim the ability to do so.

    Whoever believes that someone you actually psychic powers would not take their $1000000 from Randi is BS themselves.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Absolute Storm
    Date: 28-Apr-00 | 04:19 AM

    I'll accept any form of healing that can be proven to be successful, although I'd usually want some form of scientific explanation also.

    Admittedly, I haven't seen or experienced any demonstrations of alternative medicine but, if even the practitioners themselves don't have a scientific explanation, I have little reason to believe it works.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Z
    Date: 28-Apr-00 | 05:36 AM

    JIMMO: Go check out the chi thread in the underground forum, it has some good read concerning chi for one person.

    As for healing message, etc. First of all, placebo effect does matter, whether we want to believe so or not. This has been proven in scientific studies that it can help people heal "faster" if they believe they're going to heal faster. Second, I too have experienced chi healing. My dad's awfully good at it and he learns from one of the world's best. But I think it's better if we analyze first what we know.

    1. acupucture works on the principle that if you hit meridians and acupuncture points you energize the chi in your body to heal places faster. These meridians and acupuncture points very closely resemble the nervous system (so I'm told)

    2. Increased blood flow to a certain region in the body does help that part of the body to heal.

    3. The body itself is very resiliant and very resoucefull in healing itself.

    Now, what if chi was only the increase in blood flow to a particular part of the body? In that case, wouldn't chi messages, which promotes blood flow, help the body to heal itself by increasing its blood flow? That's one possibility. This would explain why for some people chi healing is very helpfull while for others it isn't. All the chi healing is doing is speeding up the body's own healing techniques.

    Of course, I might be totally wrong. Only time and science will tell.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: angle45
    Date: 28-Apr-00 | 08:14 AM

    i believe the stories of ch'i power...hahaha...especially the guy here in Hawaii who is supposed to be a bagua teacher who can "defeat my opponent easily because just from focusing on him, I will take 50% of his energy and he will be weak..."

    He convinced me that he was powerful so I left his nice presentation...good lord and I would have given the guy more respect if he was actually past 30 yrs of age...

    sorry just being sarcastic in my remarks, but the guy tainted the legends and myths I enjoy believing in whether real or not.

    I believe there is ch'i energy and it helps me recover faster than my training partner in judo class hahaha... Just trying to be light on the subject.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Fan
    Date: 28-Apr-00 | 09:45 AM

    I agree with 90% of what has been said here but there is a trend which I would like to "debunk". I did alot of research in college for different classes, and there is an "objective basis in reality" for Chi Gung and Yoga. The problem, if you even want to call it that, is that Chi based ability is being defined here as the ability to push/hit someone without actually touching them. Without getting overly technical, I would like to define Chi Gung/yoga as a method of training the body, and certain attributes of the body, just as weightlifting is a system that trains specific attributes of the body. There are conmen in the East, just as there are in the West. Having met a few Chinese from both the martial arts context, and outside of the martial arts context, I have learned an interesting thing. Westerners have a far more mystical concept of Chi than do Asians. We watch too much Star Wars, and think of the Force. :-) At the most fundamental level, Chigung as applied to Martial Arts is about using the breath to move the diaphragm in order to connect/ generate power from the abdominal region down through the hips/ legs. There are few people who can really fight with this anymore, partially because it takes some talent/work to develop, and most people who are interested in hardcore fighting dont go to internal schools anymore. A principle of science is universality. That different people can do the same experiments in different places and come up with the same result. Likewise, there are some people who, by the way they carry their bodies naturally, develop some of the attributes that I was talking about. In MMA, Randy Couture most closely fits what Im trying to say.

    Subject: RE: INFO
    From: Fan
    Date: 28-Apr-00 | 09:59 AM

    Im sorry, that was way too long for what I needed to say. Basically, I agree MA, especially in this area is full of charlatans, nuts, etc.

    90% of all chi in martial arts is BS. But the 10% that is left does have an interesting aspect to add to MA.

    #2
    Now I want to do SAMBO.

    This is a great post, I urge anyone who reads this, to read it twice through!
    Anyone who posts 'tl:dr' in earnest, about this post should be slapped and banned!
    I'm off to complete my earlier circuit, because I STILL have a crush on Mtrip...

    Comment


      #3
      Adds new books to list.

      Comment


        #4
        Great post. This should be required reading when you register.

        Comment


          #5
          Points 1, 5, 8 & 12 reminded me of YouTube - Kenz Karate 1 - Lance Krall.

          I'm about halfway through, getting to the Sambo conversation and I love what I've read thus far. Once again, thank you MTripp for your always valuable experiences.

          Comment


            #6
            That thread makes me sad. Experts like Sonnon and Mark Tripp themselves weigh in on things that are obvious bullshit and random idiots say "HAY GUYZ ACTUALLY CHI IS REAL LOLOLOL TOGETHER IN CHRIST YOU GUYS ARE DICKS".

            People are dumb. :(

            Comment


              #7
              It was an interesting discussion...

              Comment


                #8
                Those who are following the still hot "Systema" debate needed to read all of this again.

                So, here it is.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                  Those who are following the still hot "Systema" debate needed to read all of this again.

                  So, here it is.
                  Errr... why?

                  I followed this thread closely the first time around nearly 10 yrs ago in the UG (and ebudo and elsewhere). What is yer point this time?

                  Fyi I am still training in systema and still find it very physically demanding and very rewarding. Still haven't had anybody promise that I will eventually develop the ability to throw people without touching them. Still don't care.

                  Finally - if I look at your numbered criteria above I must tell you that systema really fares very well. At a minimum - it is relatively inexpensive, no fixed contracts, no requirement to buy uniform/shirt, test, or belts, no bad mouthing of other styles, just good hard work with real contact

                  everybody should be so lucky. So why the suddenly re-energized hard on for the old psychic stuff?

                  I have seen the activity in the mega-thread. I ain't going to get into it. It doesn't ever go anywhere and imo it is not relevant or productive.
                  Last edited by EricH; 5/18/2009 2:33pm, .

                  Comment


                    #10
                    <<<Errr... why?>>>

                    Because

                    <<<I followed this thread closely the first time around nearly 10 yrs ago in the UG (and ebudo and elsewhere). What is yer point this time?>>>

                    The exact same point as last time

                    <<<Fyi I am still training in systema and still find it very physically demanding and very rewarding.>>>

                    Good for you

                    <<<Still haven't had anybody promise that I will eventually develop the ability to throw people without touching them. Still don't care.>>>

                    From the number of You Tube videos out there, you must be the only one that isn't.

                    <<<Finally - if I look at your numbered criteria above I must tell you that systema really fares very well.>>>

                    Hardly. It claims to be a Russian Secret Military System, that NO Russian Military person I have spoken to has ever heard of.

                    <<<At a minimum - it is relatively inexpensive, no fixed contracts, no requirement to buy uniform/shirt, test, or belts, no bad mouthing of other styles, just good hard work with real contact>>>

                    Why not up load some of those work outs on to You Tube so people can see how different you are from all the other schools of "The system?"

                    <<<everybody should be so lucky. So why the suddenly re-energized hard on for the old psychic stuff?>>>

                    Ummm... you tell me. Is your system that has people flying across the room without touching them. For me, its the same old hard on, I call it as I see it.

                    <<<I have seen the activity in the mega-thread. I ain't going to get into it. It doesn't ever go anywhere and imo it is not relevant or productive.>>>

                    Yet, here you are. Again, the You Tube videos make my point. We will await your videos to show us different.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                      <<<I followed this thread closely the first time around nearly 10 yrs ago in the UG (and ebudo and elsewhere). What is yer point this time?>>>

                      The exact same point as last time
                      What was the point last time? I can't recall. What are you trying to accomplish?

                      I have found a lot of value in systema training but just about anybody would agree that it is not for everybody. And heck yes - there are some funky videos out there.

                      After >10yrs can you add to that statement?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        <<<What was the point last time? I can't recall. What are you trying to accomplish?>>>

                        Well, for starters:

                        1. Why has no legitimate Russian Military person I have spoken to, ever heard about "The System?"

                        2. Why is it NO ONE was even using the term till after it appeared in a Batman Comic book?

                        3. Why claim psychic abilities, then say "we don't train in psychic abilities?"

                        4. What in the hell are the video's about if not Aikido/Ki Power BS?"

                        5. Why do I hear that the video's do not represent "The System" yet we see NO video that shows "The System" in any kind of an effective combat way?

                        I have more, but those will do for now.

                        <<<I have found a lot of value in systema training but just about anybody would agree that it is not for everybody. And heck yes - there are some funky videos out there.>>>

                        See questions above.

                        <<<After >10yrs can you add to that statement?>>>

                        Because 10 years later, we are seeing BRAND NEW BS training videos, and we still haven't had any real answers to the questions about Troopa.

                        When I have had to jump through flaming hoops about my background and training, you can be sure I will expect no less from anyone else.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I liked it took a while to read but some good stuff.

                          The psychic throwing thing cant be addressed enough times IMO........

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post

                            1. Why has no legitimate Russian Military person I have spoken to, ever heard about "The System?"
                            I guess we know different Russian military people. I know at least 6 - this number includes Ryabko, Vasiliev, and my teacher Viktor Sirotin who is not affiliated with Ryabko/Vasiliev. See also the latest installment of "Deadliest Warrior". It is a silly show, but both spets operatives train in systema under Vasiliev. Do you think they would do this if he was bogus?

                            Their resumes check out.

                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            2. Why is it NO ONE was even using the term till after it appeared in a Batman Comic book?
                            Really don't know what you are talking about here. I heard the name systema first in about 1996 when I started training with Viktor; Vasiliev started in Toronto in 1993 he was the first teacher in north america as far as I know so you wouldn't have heard it before then. It had been in use as a general term "system" in Russia for much longer than that. If it was in a Batman comic I suspect that they didn't make it up wholesale but had heard it in context and used it.

                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            3. Why claim psychic abilities, then say "we don't train in psychic abilities?"
                            Mistranslation, misunderstanding, and TRS hype. A tape released in about 2003 called Beyond the Physical attempted to clear this up. I guess you don't have it.

                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            4. What in the hell are the video's about if not Aikido/Ki Power BS?"
                            Which videos? Hand to Hand Combat? Stick Fighting? Knife Defense? There is nothing mysterious in the vast majority of these videos. You are referring to ancient history and widely circulated youtube clips.

                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            5. Why do I hear that the video's do not represent "The System" yet we see NO video that shows "The System" in any kind of an effective combat way?
                            There are at least as many videos showing systema in a very mundane way as there are fantastical videos. There are only so many fantastical videos because they get sliced and diced and circulated by you LOLZ @ CHI BOYZ. They are not at all hard to find, try russianmartialart.com for instance, so I won't bother linking any.

                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            <<<After >10yrs can you add to that statement?>>>

                            Because 10 years later, we are seeing BRAND NEW BS training videos, and we still haven't had any real answers to the questions about Troopa.
                            Which brand new BS training video are you referring to? Troopa is >10yrs old. I have never seen it and from the sounds of it it is not even Vasiliev or Ryabko - is it? There is a lot of this type of demonstration in certain branches of Russian MA. It does not matter to me. The training with these guys is real and exceptional.


                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            When I have had to jump through flaming hoops about my background and training, you can be sure I will expect no less from anyone else.
                            I see, you are bitter and you are lashing out. That is what I thought.

                            I have now given this more time than it is worth.
                            Last edited by EricH; 5/19/2009 9:10am, .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              <<<I guess we know different Russian military people. I know at least 6 - this number includes Ryabko, Vasiliev, and my teacher Viktor Sirotin who is not affiliated with Ryabko/Vasiliev. See also the latest installment of "Deadliest Warrior". It is a silly show, but both spets operatives train in systema under Vasiliev. Do you think they would do this if he was bogus?>>>

                              Our Special Forces trained with Dan Severn, and your point? We have people here who claim to have created and trained SEALS in hand to hand combat. Until you speak to the SEALS and learn there is no SEAL method of H2H combat. Sorry, can't get there from here.

                              <<<Really don't know what you are talking about here. I heard the name systema first in about 1996 when I started training with Viktor; Vasiliev started in Toronto in 1993 he was the first teacher in north america as far as I know so you wouldn't have heard it before then. It had been in use as a general term "system" in Russia for much longer than that. If it was in a Batman comic I suspect that they didn't make it up wholesale but had heard it in context and used it.>>>

                              Ummm... the Batman comic predates your timeline. Second, in NO research work on Russian Military Training of the time periods does this term come up. Palidan Press sells them all now; look them up.

                              I was in Toronto at the demos, and as I said, it was foolish then and now.

                              <<<Mistranslation, misunderstanding, and TRS hype. A tape released in about 2003 called Beyond the Physical attempted to clear this up. I guess you don't have it.>>>

                              Please, you are the same guy who never could handle Troopa 10 years ago and you come here making the same case. Lets do it like this; $10,000 to ANYONE in your system who can knock me down without touching me like all those You Tube video's show. IF you actually hit me, or I do not fall down, you lose your $10,000. Let me know when you want to set this up.

                              <<<Which videos? Hand to Hand Combat? Stick Fighting? Knife Defense? There is nothing mysterious in the vast majority of these videos. You are referring to ancient history and widely circulated youtube clips.>>>

                              There are a number of videos from You Tube posted here, that are not even two years old, that show the same kind of BS that was on Troopa. Again, why blame me for what the guys in YOUR system are doing? I have been all over a guy for using the term "judo" when he should not. If this stuff is NOT what you guys do, then go after them.

                              <<<There are at least as many videos showing systema in a very mundane way as there are fantastical videos. There are only so many fantastical videos because they get sliced and diced and circulated by you LOLZ @ CHI BOYZ. They are not at all hard to find, try russianmartialart.com for instance, so I won't bother linking any.>>>

                              Yes, it is a plot by people like me to keep people from learning the real and secret combat methods you guys are using. Please...

                              <<<Which brand new BS training video are you referring to? Troopa is >10yrs old. I have never seen it and from the sounds of it it is not even Vasiliev or Ryabko - is it?>>>

                              Oh yes, they both are. But you know that; which is why I wanted the video posted long before now.

                              <<<There is a lot of this type of demonstration in certain branches of Russian MA. It does not matter to me. The training with these guys is real and exceptional.>>>

                              You need to get out more. Nothing I have ever seen them do has been either to me, and is a JOKE next to the real Russian masters of Sambo and Judo.

                              <<<I see, you are bitter and you are lashing out. That is what I thought.>>>

                              You have proven what you think isn't worth much; not 10 years ago, and not now.

                              <<<I have now given this more time than it is worth.>>>

                              $10,000 is worth quite a bit; put up or shut up.....

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