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THE CHOKE

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  • Hannibal
    replied
    I agree with most of whats being said. EXtreme measures of incapacitating an opponant are not always necessay however if he is a bully determined on injuring you then I would not hesitate in showing him the error of his ways. I have no desire to be someone punchng bag and if they start it they just might regret it. As for this bullshit about pressing charges and court room cases,how? If someone you have never met before starts a fight in a bar if you get the chance to choke him out..how will he know who you are? You've never met before,he dosen't know you,when hes out of it you just run right out of there and never go back.

    But on the whole fighting should be avoided at all costs. Forget what you see in Jackie Chan movies where guys get kicked in the head 6 or 7 times then get up and start walking.Fighting is a very dirty,messy,painful experiance where people get seriously injured and sometimes killed especially if wepons are involved.In a real fight,blood and teeth go everywhere,ribs get smashed,arms get broken.Its called reality and its not pleasent.

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  • Toby Christensen
    replied
    Originally posted by Jolly_Roger
    "Yeah, that was the fuckin' buggerin' bastard" "Good. Now, kick 'im inna fork!!"
    -
    Oh JR, you've made my day! :p

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  • SLJ
    replied
    I would personally rather use a choke, I would make sure the guy was still breathing but then I would get out of there and leave him. This would be ideal, as IMO it's the safest and cleanest way to take somone out, but it would depend on situation, time / space to pull it off etc.

    One things for sure, if you bash someone up with strikes there will be a lot more evidence if you used excessive force.

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  • Strangler2
    replied
    I myself don't have the balls and too much regret to attack someone who did nothing to me. my morals are too high and I might not be able to live with myself. Plus you can run into someone with higher skill that will put you in hospital, you can get into trouble with police, someone could pull a knife out, etc.

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  • Jolly_Roger
    replied
    Originally posted by Strangler
    Didn't Bruce Lee and Yip Man advocate (and at least Bruce Lee claims he did) advocate (start) fights to test his skills against people on the street?
    Well, I think he did...
    And the reason why he got away was, he WAS Bruce Lee...
    Seriously, if the way to test your skills was fight in the street, imagine what outcomes would be possible, for most of mortals (that is, not Bruce Lee):
    1.- A sad family gathered 'round a coffin, and a sobbing mother saying:"He just wanted to be like this bloke on tv, who was with the green hornet...he'd even practique the "Iiiiiiiuuuuuuuuuiiiiii" every time he punched something or someone..."
    2.- A happy little MAist walking down the street, singing "I want to test my skiiiiiiiiiiiiills, so Slaughter, Massacre, Dice and Slice...", when suddendly, from out of a building, someone comes from behind and cracks him a good whack on the back of the neck, and voices say:
    "'was 'im, roight?", "Yeah, that was the fuckin' buggerin' bastard" "Good. Now, kick 'im inna fork!!"
    After that, see 1.-

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  • udo
    replied
    If I got into a fight, given my current level of training, I'm going to do all that I can to get away, and worry about the consequences later. I'm not good enough yet to have the luxury of choosing how I finish someone--I have to take what's there.

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  • Punisher
    replied
    "I hate these threads. There is no time to be thinking about this garbage in a fight."

    You're absolutely right.. There is not time to think during the fight. All you can hope is you will act appropriately. In the few times I've had to defend myself I was more concerned with going home safe than putting the hurt on the other guy. I never had the complusion to hit anyone after they were no longer a threat to me. Some people have trouble turning the switch off.

    One thing we do at my dojo is the stop light game. A person lines up in front of you, the instructor yells out a color, they attack, you react. Your response is dictated by the color. Green means try not to hurt them at all, maybe avoid the attack, push them off balance, run for the door. Yellow means inflict damage but in a way not likely to be permanently injurious or deadly. This is strikes to non vital areas, maybe a choke. Red means take them out in the most brutal way you can think of. You are meaning to put this person in the hospital or in the morgue. The thing is, no matter what color is called the attacker is supposed to attack with the same level of intensity.

    This is damn tough, even in the controlled conditions of the dojo. You have to recoginized the attack and come up with a force level appropriate response immediately, all while trying not to hurt your partner.

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  • Ronin
    replied
    When I was bouncing, even during my stint in executive protection, not to mention the military, I have choked out far more people than I have "pounded on".
    In the clubs, when I have choked out someone, the cops, never has said anything, they have said shit when the come and the guys is all fucked up an bleeding, even from a broken nose.

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  • The Wastrel
    replied
    I hate these threads. There is no time to be thinking about this garbage in a fight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Punisher
    replied
    "I'd rather actively and aggressively seek a choke then wait to see how hard I get hit before hitting him back. Personal choice though."

    I never said you have to wait. Putting yourself at unnecessary risk isn't protecting yourself. I'm talking about the intent of your actions. You can still be proactive, but when the police interviews you afterwards your statements should be like "I was afraid for my safety, I only did what I felt I had too", not "The guy wanted to start something so I taught him a lesson." Your actions during the altercation should back up those statements.

    Think about what your are suggesting. A guy pushes you and you respond by pouncing on him and choking him unconcious. What is that going to look like? If the guy wakes up, which I conceed he probably will, he is going to think you just tried to kill him. That is also what it will look like to everyone else in attendance. What are you going to do, announce "Don't worry folks, I'm a trained martial artist. He'll be fine in just a few minutes"?

    As I have said time and time again, the best thing to do is not be in the fight at all. If you are in the fight, only do what is necessary to get out of it. If you need to choke someone out to protect yourself, fine. If that is the only viable option I don't have a problem with that, and neither should anyone else.

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  • Strangler2
    replied
    Didn't Bruce Lee and Yip Man advocate (and at least Bruce Lee claims he did) advocate (start) fights to test his skills against people on the street?

    Leave a comment:


  • MiloNYC
    replied
    Originally posted by Punisher
    A pop to the nose tends to make people think twice. You then back away and loudly and publicly tell him to back off.
    Hmm, well we see to be at the common MA impasse of trying to define what would happen it a "real life" fight. In my experience giving someone a bloody nose gives them that much more reason to go after you and does little to slow them down. I have never seen a fight ended with body shots. I suppose it is possible that if you got into a fight with a guy you could punch him a few times and then he would listen to reason and not punch you back.

    Originally posted by Punisher
    If your defending yourself your thoughts should be about protecting yourself from harm, not harming the other person.
    That's very much subject to style and fight philosophy. Some arts advocate being receptive and working off the other persons actions. Others advocate being more proactive and less defensive, make him react to what you are doing. I'd rather actively and aggressively seek a choke then wait to see how hard I get hit before hitting him back. Personal choice though.

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  • Punisher
    replied
    "Okay. So give me the self defense scenario? Guy in bar, had a few too many, shoving match. You hit him in the face and he stops because it hurts?"

    That's a pretty good one. Most people are profighters, able to soak up tremendous amounts of punishment. A pop to the nose tends to make people think twice. You then back away and loudly and publicly tell him to back off. If he comes at you a again, you deal with it.

    Also, who says you have to hit to the head. I wouldn't punch some one in the head, mostly because I don't want to break my hand. You can strike to the body or the limbs. More than one person here on the site has related a story about ending an altercation with a series of leg kicks.

    Also up until the point of physical violence, and even afterward, I would do anything in my power to defuse the situation. It would be hard to label me the aggressor if twenty people in the bar hear me repeatedly say "Hey man, back off. I don't want to fight you. I don't want any trouble." I'm not saying I wouldn't act first if I thought physical violence was inevitable, but I feel that any fight has the potential of someone ended up dead and I'll do anything I can to avoid it.

    And like I said, I wouldn't hit anyone more times than I had to. If the guy is on the ground, I don't kick him unless he is reaching for my leg or going for a weapon.

    The self-defense laws in most states allow people to take "reasonable" action to defend themselves. What is "reasonable" is purposfully ambigious, allowing each case to be decided on its particular merits. If I was involved in a self-defense siutation, my amount training would be brought into play. You should not strike someone if pushing them would resolve the situation. You should not choke someone if simply restraining them and holding them down will do. If your defending yourself your thoughts should be about protecting yourself from harm, not harming the other person.

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  • Strangler2
    replied
    How are you going to get sued if you run home and leave the guy laying there in the middle of nowhere? How will he or/and the cops find you. He might not even remember how you look like. Last Summer I was sitting with my friend drinking a beer and all of a sudden I hear a guy screeming Help, Police! and I see these two guys running with a wallet and a purse not too far from me and my friend. My friend just watches and laughs and tells me "People do what they have to do to get by". And it took like 15 minutes for the cops to get there and the guy had a bloody nose. I'm willing to bet those guys didn't get caught.
    Last edited by Strangler2; 12/14/2003 11:00pm, .

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  • MiloNYC
    replied
    Originally posted by Punisher
    I think you are WAY over estimating the damage you need to inflict on someone in order to get them to stop. It is unlikely you will need to beat them to the point they have brain damage. You don't even really need to "finish" them, only to do enough to get away.
    Okay. So give me the self defense scenario? Guy in bar, had a few too many, shoving match. You hit him in the face and he stops because it hurts? How are you foreseeing the use of strikes to remove yourself from imminent harm?

    Originally posted by Punisher

    I also think you are over estimating the ability of people to sue you.
    Could be. The legal liability of excessive force during physical confrontations is pretty well documented. Police departments have a lot more rights than you do to use force and even they have had to incorporate liability on an unprecedented level. I think you are right in that the degree to which it is incorporated into your self defense ideology has to be flexible. Location, your economic status (will this person be seeing dollar signs when they see you), appearance (if you are slim and mild mannered you stand a lot better chance then if you are large and lack a discernible neck). I think that liability has to be one of the factors along with practicality etc. when choosing which techniques to practice for self defense.

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