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    #31
    If you run from the scene of the crime how are you going to end up in court?

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      #32
      You tell us.
      Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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        #33
        Originally posted by The Wastrel
        MiloNYC,
        I was agreeing with you.
        Whoops- sorry:-)

        Originally posted by Punisher
        You also have to consider how other people might percieve the incident as it goes down. My feeling is if you slap a RNC on a guy, the potential eye witnesses are likely going to think "Oh shit, he's going to kill that guy, he's got him my the throat".
        How untrained observers would view a choke versus strikes during the process of a fight is an interesting point. But I think the main concern is the resolution of that fight and the aftermath. Chokes as a preferred method to "finish it" without ending up in jail or a lengthy legal battle. It's unfortunate but until there is tort reform there is going to be something of a lottery mentally about even to most stupid and effectively self inflicted injury.

        The problem is that in order to "finish" a fight with strikes you are talking about inflicting enough brain damage that they either lose consciousness or the coordination needed to fight back. Without gloves it is unlikely that you can without making hamburger of their face in the process. Pictures of which are likely to be enough for a jury to rule excessive force. There's also no such thing as a "little" brain damage. The line between being incapacitated and permanent injury is a fine one. I don't think you should handcuff yourself to the point where you cannot effectively fight but I think it's important to keep in mind the point at which strikes provide resolution in a serous fight and the likelihood of long term legal consequences.

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          #34
          All it takes is a couple of well placed strikes to knock someone out. The problem is landing these, because unless you are highly skilled, it's going to be hard to quickly peg someone with well placed, and strong, blows.

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            #35
            MiloNYC,

            I think you are WAY over estimating the damage you need to inflict on someone in order to get them to stop. It is unlikely you will need to beat them to the point they have brain damage. You don't even really need to "finish" them, only to do enough to get away.

            I also think you are over estimating the ability of people to sue you. I was just involved in a serious car accident, one that put me in a neck brace for about two months. The driver that hit me fell asleep, it is a clear cut case of neligence with no defense on his part. Do you know how much my pain and suffering is worth according to my lawyer, one of the top attonerys in my area? $5000. That's it. The total settlement is likely to be about $10,000 but half goes to pay my medical bills and my lawyer. Not exactly winning the lottery.

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              #36
              Originally posted by Punisher
              I think you are WAY over estimating the damage you need to inflict on someone in order to get them to stop. It is unlikely you will need to beat them to the point they have brain damage. You don't even really need to "finish" them, only to do enough to get away.
              Okay. So give me the self defense scenario? Guy in bar, had a few too many, shoving match. You hit him in the face and he stops because it hurts? How are you foreseeing the use of strikes to remove yourself from imminent harm?

              Originally posted by Punisher

              I also think you are over estimating the ability of people to sue you.
              Could be. The legal liability of excessive force during physical confrontations is pretty well documented. Police departments have a lot more rights than you do to use force and even they have had to incorporate liability on an unprecedented level. I think you are right in that the degree to which it is incorporated into your self defense ideology has to be flexible. Location, your economic status (will this person be seeing dollar signs when they see you), appearance (if you are slim and mild mannered you stand a lot better chance then if you are large and lack a discernible neck). I think that liability has to be one of the factors along with practicality etc. when choosing which techniques to practice for self defense.

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                #37
                How are you going to get sued if you run home and leave the guy laying there in the middle of nowhere? How will he or/and the cops find you. He might not even remember how you look like. Last Summer I was sitting with my friend drinking a beer and all of a sudden I hear a guy screeming Help, Police! and I see these two guys running with a wallet and a purse not too far from me and my friend. My friend just watches and laughs and tells me "People do what they have to do to get by". And it took like 15 minutes for the cops to get there and the guy had a bloody nose. I'm willing to bet those guys didn't get caught.
                Last edited by Strangler2; 12/14/2003 11:00pm, .

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                  #38
                  "Okay. So give me the self defense scenario? Guy in bar, had a few too many, shoving match. You hit him in the face and he stops because it hurts?"

                  That's a pretty good one. Most people are profighters, able to soak up tremendous amounts of punishment. A pop to the nose tends to make people think twice. You then back away and loudly and publicly tell him to back off. If he comes at you a again, you deal with it.

                  Also, who says you have to hit to the head. I wouldn't punch some one in the head, mostly because I don't want to break my hand. You can strike to the body or the limbs. More than one person here on the site has related a story about ending an altercation with a series of leg kicks.

                  Also up until the point of physical violence, and even afterward, I would do anything in my power to defuse the situation. It would be hard to label me the aggressor if twenty people in the bar hear me repeatedly say "Hey man, back off. I don't want to fight you. I don't want any trouble." I'm not saying I wouldn't act first if I thought physical violence was inevitable, but I feel that any fight has the potential of someone ended up dead and I'll do anything I can to avoid it.

                  And like I said, I wouldn't hit anyone more times than I had to. If the guy is on the ground, I don't kick him unless he is reaching for my leg or going for a weapon.

                  The self-defense laws in most states allow people to take "reasonable" action to defend themselves. What is "reasonable" is purposfully ambigious, allowing each case to be decided on its particular merits. If I was involved in a self-defense siutation, my amount training would be brought into play. You should not strike someone if pushing them would resolve the situation. You should not choke someone if simply restraining them and holding them down will do. If your defending yourself your thoughts should be about protecting yourself from harm, not harming the other person.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Punisher
                    A pop to the nose tends to make people think twice. You then back away and loudly and publicly tell him to back off.
                    Hmm, well we see to be at the common MA impasse of trying to define what would happen it a "real life" fight. In my experience giving someone a bloody nose gives them that much more reason to go after you and does little to slow them down. I have never seen a fight ended with body shots. I suppose it is possible that if you got into a fight with a guy you could punch him a few times and then he would listen to reason and not punch you back.

                    Originally posted by Punisher
                    If your defending yourself your thoughts should be about protecting yourself from harm, not harming the other person.
                    That's very much subject to style and fight philosophy. Some arts advocate being receptive and working off the other persons actions. Others advocate being more proactive and less defensive, make him react to what you are doing. I'd rather actively and aggressively seek a choke then wait to see how hard I get hit before hitting him back. Personal choice though.

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                      #40
                      Didn't Bruce Lee and Yip Man advocate (and at least Bruce Lee claims he did) advocate (start) fights to test his skills against people on the street?

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                        #41
                        "I'd rather actively and aggressively seek a choke then wait to see how hard I get hit before hitting him back. Personal choice though."

                        I never said you have to wait. Putting yourself at unnecessary risk isn't protecting yourself. I'm talking about the intent of your actions. You can still be proactive, but when the police interviews you afterwards your statements should be like "I was afraid for my safety, I only did what I felt I had too", not "The guy wanted to start something so I taught him a lesson." Your actions during the altercation should back up those statements.

                        Think about what your are suggesting. A guy pushes you and you respond by pouncing on him and choking him unconcious. What is that going to look like? If the guy wakes up, which I conceed he probably will, he is going to think you just tried to kill him. That is also what it will look like to everyone else in attendance. What are you going to do, announce "Don't worry folks, I'm a trained martial artist. He'll be fine in just a few minutes"?

                        As I have said time and time again, the best thing to do is not be in the fight at all. If you are in the fight, only do what is necessary to get out of it. If you need to choke someone out to protect yourself, fine. If that is the only viable option I don't have a problem with that, and neither should anyone else.

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                          #42
                          I hate these threads. There is no time to be thinking about this garbage in a fight.
                          Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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                            #43
                            When I was bouncing, even during my stint in executive protection, not to mention the military, I have choked out far more people than I have "pounded on".
                            In the clubs, when I have choked out someone, the cops, never has said anything, they have said shit when the come and the guys is all fucked up an bleeding, even from a broken nose.

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                              #44
                              "I hate these threads. There is no time to be thinking about this garbage in a fight."

                              You're absolutely right.. There is not time to think during the fight. All you can hope is you will act appropriately. In the few times I've had to defend myself I was more concerned with going home safe than putting the hurt on the other guy. I never had the complusion to hit anyone after they were no longer a threat to me. Some people have trouble turning the switch off.

                              One thing we do at my dojo is the stop light game. A person lines up in front of you, the instructor yells out a color, they attack, you react. Your response is dictated by the color. Green means try not to hurt them at all, maybe avoid the attack, push them off balance, run for the door. Yellow means inflict damage but in a way not likely to be permanently injurious or deadly. This is strikes to non vital areas, maybe a choke. Red means take them out in the most brutal way you can think of. You are meaning to put this person in the hospital or in the morgue. The thing is, no matter what color is called the attacker is supposed to attack with the same level of intensity.

                              This is damn tough, even in the controlled conditions of the dojo. You have to recoginized the attack and come up with a force level appropriate response immediately, all while trying not to hurt your partner.

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                                #45
                                If I got into a fight, given my current level of training, I'm going to do all that I can to get away, and worry about the consequences later. I'm not good enough yet to have the luxury of choosing how I finish someone--I have to take what's there.

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