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    #16
    I'm grumpy.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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      #17
      Originally posted by The Wastrel
      Who the fuck cares? I don't. I hate this "My martial arts sucks because it has to be legally sound" bullshit.
      "Legally sound" is not bullshit. There is little point in beating up a assailant (in that mythical unarmed one-on-one unavoidable confrontation with their girlfriend watching that martial artists have wet dreams about) if it gets you a cell with a 300lb man named Bubba. A few small bruises on the neck looks a whole lot better in court then orbital fractures. It does not take much in the way of strikes before jury's are willing to rule it "excessive force". If the point behind training is self defense then a technique that stands a good chance of sending you to jail is something of a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire. If you are reasonably successful in life bashing someone's head in over $20, a spilled drink or the other bullshit that nearly all real world fights are about is a good way to screw things up for yourself. When mommy and daddy aren't footing your legal bills it changes things a whole lot.

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        #18
        MiloNYC,
        I was agreeing with you.
        Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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          #19
          I hit on the thread and there's the stupid looking picture of Ronin69, making a point. It makes me laugh outloud.

          Thank you, now I'm going to drink some rum. Happy Friday Night.

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            #20
            The laws vary from state to state. Know your state's laws and inflict maximum damage.

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              #21
              a cell with a 300lb man named Bubba.
              ...it's always a guy named Bubba. Every time someone mentions the 300 pound guy in jail, his name is always Bubba. Just imagine what the real 300 pound guys in jail--who just happen to be named Bubba--must think lol

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                #22
                Okay, who else here has had the buzzing and tunnel vision?

                If you don't understand what I'm talking about, please respond.

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                  #23
                  "A few small bruises on the neck looks a whole lot better in court then orbital fractures. It does not take much in the way of strikes before jury's are willing to rule it "excessive force"."

                  I'm still not sure about this. Normal people like the ones likely to be on the jury understand punches. They do not typically understand chokes. It will be hard to convince someone outside of the martial art community that choking someone until they black out is a safe and reasonable thing to do. Think about it; if you gave the average person a choice between taking a shot to the face and being choked unconcious, what would they chose?

                  I'm not saying strikes are any better or any worse. Chances are if you are involved in a serious altercation and you end up hurting the other guy, questions will be asked. You better have the right answers, i.e. valid reasons for everything you did, whatever it was.

                  I think some of the worse advice martial arts schools can give is the "how to hurt someone and not end up in trouble" variety. This is because it often goes beyond the "don't use any more force than necessary" into ways on how to inflict more damage and "not get caught". Nothing makes me madder than when an instructor says something like "use this strike instead because it is less likely to leave bruises on your attacker" or some bullshit like that.

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                    #24
                    If you knock out someone's teeth, you're in bigger trouble than if they passed out.
                    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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                      #25
                      Choking somebody unconscious is very safe. It takes about eight to twelve seconds to lose consciousness once a choke is sunk. Rather than just tapping, I like to try to make the most of the time I have left awake to try and break the choke - only tap at the last second. This has obviously led to me being choked out on quite a few occasions. All that happens is you wake up after a few seconds, having had a pleasant out of body experience. You do feel disoriented and will wonder where you are, but after that you can get straight back in there. The worst thing is that everybody stops to stare at you.
                      Somebody I know used to have his students choke each other out in turn, so that they knew what it would feel like, and what to expect.
                      You have to hold a choke on after unconsciousness for two plus minutes to kill. You'd have to be a serious retard to accidentally choke somebody to death; it's fairly obvious when they go under - they stop fighting.

                      Give it a try; get a friend to choke you unconscious, it really isn't that bad. I would say it's by far the most benevolent way to end a fight.

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                        #26
                        I wonder if repeated strangulation, that you would get from training judo, bjj or mma would have a benificial effect on the body after a while, like your body might begin to put less strain on your cardiovascular system or someting, or get less of a 'shock' effect. ? any info on that?

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                          #27
                          "If you knock out someone's teeth, you're in bigger trouble than if they passed out."

                          You're probably right. There are going to be higher medical bills and pain and suffering with busted teeth. What I fear is either a criminal or civil attorney trying to get into what COULD have happened, instead of what happened. You will be asked questions like, how did you know the guy was going to wake up? How many people have you choked out, untrained people, outside of class and competition? How did you chose how long was safe to leave the choke applied, and are you really qualified to make that decision, and was your decision process imparied by stress, alcohol, or anything else? If they conclude that the only reason the guy is alive is because you let go of the hold at some arbitrary point after he stopped moving, you may be facing attempted murder.

                          You also have to consider how other people might percieve the incident as it goes down. My feeling is if you slap a RNC on a guy, the potential eye witnesses are likely going to think "Oh shit, he's going to kill that guy, he's got him my the throat".

                          I totally agree that chokes can be a kinder, gentler way to end a fight, but as I pointed out I do not believe the general public holds that view. The fact that police can hit people with metal batons, but cannot restrain someone with a choke is evidence of that. Any time you choke someone out, their life is directly in your hands. The "What if?" factor is just too high for me.

                          And like I said, I'm NOT saying don't choke. I AM saying don't think using a choke will keep you safe in the eyes of the law. Obiviously the best solution is to avoid conflict all together, and if forced to fight use the least amount of force you can.
                          Last edited by Punisher; 12/14/2003 12:09pm, .

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                            #28
                            As for what can go wrong with chokes, just put "fainting game" into your favorite search engine. It's when kids choke themselves or others out in order to get the "pleasant out of body experience" as MMA Phil puts it. There have been deaths and brain damage from doing this. I know this is apples and oranges. These are kids, but they aren't even trying to hurt anyone. They are just looking for a good time.

                            http://www.nbc5.com/news/2659908/detail.html

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                              #29
                              The whole point is Punisher, that we are trained. So it's going to be hard to suggest in court that our intention was to kill, when that is not the intention behind our training.

                              "I just wanted him to tap out!"
                              Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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                                #30
                                Are you serious Punisher? People actually choke each other out for a buzz? That's so funny, people really are fucked up.

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